Overall your post was good, you tried to lay out some facts, definitely not trolling ( I think these couple of Zerker posts are pretty good and informative). However, this point you are making about the 3 min timer on your best DPS CA's is glaringly obtuse; Guardians have had a 15 month timer and counting on our DPS. For that sacrifice, we tank marginally better in some raids, but almost identically in exp group scenarios. That so many Guards are willing to respec as Zerkers in a heartbeat should tell you how much of a massive improvement CA's like this would be from where we are currently. It's not a trivial difference, it's a 3 min timer on 2 abilities. You can have a huge burst or stagger and use one every 1.5 min for steady but lower dps. Other points about Guards getting HP/STA buffs vs. the Zerker offensive ones, that's fine. Here's a question: Do Zerkers have any CA's that force them to lose mitigation or avoidance to gain better offense (other than Stance)? We get the reverse of that all over. I'm glad to see the class betrayal option be offered, it's just a shame that Guardians can't just be brought into line with other fighters now that the tanking abilities of the others have been improved. They probably will be, it's just not getting dev time while they scramble to impliment changes to improve the game's mass market appeal. But imagine how far down the priority list it will slip once half as many people are playing the class.
those skills are useless and not worth taking a guard over... guards get a stamina and life buff zerkers are same as guard besides that and they do tons more dps
on raid with my 2 hander in offensive stance I can do up to 500 dps as a guardian.. which is to much... zony needs to nerf our dps and fix our defense
As raid MT, I consistently do anywhere from 350 - 450 DPS per encounter. Thats equipped with a legendary weapon and fabled shield. I have all adept 3's and about 3 DMG Master 1's A dual-wielding Zerker in offensive on the same riad does anywhere from 500 - 600 DPS per encounter and sometimes hits 700 - 800 if the encounter is a bunch of ^ mobs. Thats dual-weilding 2 T6 fabled. He has all but 7 CA's at Master 1 and the other 7 are adept 3. He's also stakced in a grp tailored for HIGH melee DPS, haste, dmg procs, str increases etc. Guard tank advantage = more direct taunts, emergency miti buffs, ToS, moderate DPS, higher HP due to stam buffs and Direct HP buff ... Zerker tank advantage = HP regen, moderate to high DPS in MT position, avoidance emergency buffs (mitigation is better than avoidance on end-game mobs) In all honesty Zerkers can be great MT's but IMO are better suited to a melee DPS grp. Their strength is in multiple encounter situations or large grps of mobs. A guardian in the same DPS grp and lesser equipped, in offensive will do about 450 - 550 DPS, yet Shines in a tanking situation over a zerker. I honestly think these 2 classes are fine in that a zerker is a slightly lesser tank in a MT situation but is slightly better at DPS, whereas a Guardian is a slightly better tank in a MT situation and a slightly lesser DPS. Normal grping situations is a completely different story... I love playing a guardian ...
Most of the MT Raiding Guards are currently satisfied with their guardian. What I would like to know from some of the Zerkers posting here is what are the advantages / disadvantages in the following situations: a) MT in an XP group setting b) role when not the MT in an XP group setting c) soloing ability It's mostly the non-raiding Guards who are thinking of switching to Zerker and I will be the first to admit that I do not currently know enough to make an informed decision. These are the 3 areas that I spend about 99.99% of my time in so this is what will make or break the decision for me. Thanks in advance to all for the help.
if i were a solo player/grp player and didnt raid, I would be switching to a zerker no questions asked ... zerker soloability and grp ability blows guardians outta the water ... don't get me wrong guards are great and can solo fairly well and are good in grps, they are just sub-par to a zerker in both those fields ...
I'm not sure why you think avoidance will be higher. Berserkers can buff their own AGI somewhat (their version of the chance for a second avoidance check on another player). Guardians can raise defense and parry skills higher. I would think that would make for better avoidance than the AGI boost. EDIT: Again, not trying to say one is more useful than the other. AGI is a common attribute that can be boosted by other means (potions, hex dolls, etc) even if it's at a cost. Defense and parry are not so easily raised. It might actually play out pretty evenly. Message Edited by uux on 02-20-200611:15 AM
Every live update since LU#13 has adjusted berserker DPS downwards. It's never been as bad as some people would like to think.
I tried my best not to judge their usefulness. However, I think that's part of the problem. Some of the guardian skills are too situational.
Berserkers get just the opposite as well. Less offensive skills (attack speed decrease, crush/slash/pierce decrease) for better defense. Actually landing a hit on blue con'd mobs in defensive stance is a chore (without another class buffing). Currently, with the expansion as it is now, there will be a level 65 CA that has extreme defensive penalties for a minor offensive increase (check out the Juggernaut thread). Regardless, the offense seems to not have a penalty to defense (other than stance). I also wouldn't compare the HP/STA buffs to a zerker's offensive buffs. I would compare them to the zerker HP regen buffs. They're more inline with each other even though the abilities are gained at different levels.
500-600 DPS on a single mob would be extremely good. 700-800 on a bunch of ^ mobs is very situational. Raid buffed for DPS on multiple mobs, that's almost low. Berserkers get a skill called Open Wounds. It is geared toward 2H use, not DW. The damage is based of the primary weapon and a decent slow 2H has more damage than most DW weapons. That damage is applied to 5 mobs with a huge burst of haste. I wouldn't doubt that zerker could break 1k with a comparable 2H on multiple mobs. Just to clarify, there are two short term zerker mitigation buffs. I believe they are very comparable to two guardian skills, just more focused on different damage types (crush vs. pierce vs. slash). There is another short term defensive skill buff at the cost of attack speed. If guardians have more than those two skills raising mitigation (not including stance) then guardians would have a slight advantage. I think it's pretty close though.
Then my earlier post was correct. Mitigation is comparable when equally geared. The difference being the damage types. Message Edited by uux on 02-20-200612:18 PM
Very nice question and ill give you the hard truth which many know already. Berserkers make a much better Group / Solo XP tank then a Guardian because of the DPS we can do. My advice would be this, if you hardly ever tank a raid or never tank a raid, then consider switching to a Berserker, if you tank a raid or MT for a raid alot, consider sticking with your Guardian because they will tank alot better then a Berserker even when buffed as MT, even when decked out in the same gear, as long as the player knows what he / she is doing of course. :smileywink: To those Guardians who MT for raids that are considering switching to a Berserker because you think we both tank identically the same, i urge you to do ALOT of research before you switch, because id hate to see all your time wasted and go down the drain when you discover that in acual fact that Guardians do tank better then Berserkers and forced to quit because you lost tankability switching from a Guard to a Zerk.
DOH. I was so looking forward to seeing the barrage of posts (complaints) from guardians that switched just so I could say I told you so.
:smileyvery-happy: Im sure you will still get your chance man, ive no doubt the zerker forums will fill up full of whiners wanting uber DPS and uber tankability once they have switched over.........
The information in this thread (among others I've read) has convinced me. I will be switching my Guard over to a Zerker. I was already about 85% convinced but this thread is the clincher. While I hate to abandon the Guardian class that I've been playing for over a year the class no longer fits my play style. I solo about 70% of the time and I would rather get XP by doing quests than grinding mobs. Even when I group I am offtank much more than I'm MT because the guildies I group with are leveling machines and are usually higher in level than I am. I've only been on a few heritage quest related raids (if those are even real raids) and was never the MT on those so I really don't raid at all (yet...I'm only 44). Before the combat revamp I was ok at soloing but the reductions that hit Guardians (among other classes) during LU13 plus the boosts that mobs got at the same time has made soloing mind-numbingly tedious at best. From what I have read this switch will be for the best for me and other casual player, non-raiding guards. Luckily for me I'm set for the change. When the possibility of being able to change subclasses first came up I went out and bought berserker CA upgrades for as many arts in my level range as I could find :smileywink:. I figured the price would go thru the roof once this went live so I wanted to do my shopping early. If I decided to stay a Guard I could always sell the upgrades later. Thanks to everyone who has posted on this subject for helping me make up my mind.
The majority of Guardians that will be switching will not be doing it to make a better raid tank. They will be doing it to try and rescue some fun out of the game for a typically high level charachter. There will always be those that want the best flavor of the day and complain about it becasue this world lacks acceptance of consequences for ones actions. Guardians only role is that of Raid MT. We perform that at maybe 1% better than others. It's such a slight difference that most raids have other tanks other than Guardians already.We have broken utility and horrid DPS. Those making the switch want to switch to a reasonably effective class so they can enjoy the game again.
