[p]Little off topic, i realy hate it when someone thinks that anyone of another class arent entitled to an opinion, in this case pretty specifik though. In reality from groups most other classes than guadians in this case have much more experiense in seeing what other guardians are doing, right or wrong. other classes has probbaly grouped with hundreds of guardians and therefore seen both the best and the worst of any situation while the guardian usually only have himself as refference. [/p][p] Also, i realise that this is a pvp server discussion so not as important. However i kind of like Furys in mt groups. Often in my guild we go Fury, Swash, Dirge, guard, templar, mystic//defiler. 2 reasons for using the fury realy. 1 is that hes dps buff on the swash generates more agro for the guardian. Secondly the Urchin seems to totally own any mana draining mob. [/p][p] Oh and btw, finally i agree with Timmeh to some extend. In cases of non geared tanks it seems reasonable to add mitigation buffs, however there is a reason that most top guild tanks are specced away from the wis line now. Simply that those extra 0.025 % mitigation isnt worth it, and honestly, The situations where we would trade off anything for more mitigation = put a conj or pal in mt group is 0. We used to do it half a year ago when our gear sucked more though. [/p]
Alright, I REALLY didn't wanna get into this discussion - especially not on this thread. A) I hope English is your second language. B) No assassin knows how to play guardian better then me. (not saying I'm the best Guardian in the world, but I've been doing it for a while. I like to think I know what I'm doing.) C)Look at it this way. If you had 50% mitigation, you'd be taking half damage. Adding 50% more mitigation doesn't "double" the value; it goes from "half damage" to "no damage". To actually double the value you instead only go to 75%; the first 50% halved the damage you're taking and the second 25% halved it again. That's *increasing* returns- each percentage is more valuable than the previous one. This is where the "diminishing" returns comes in. To compensate for the fact that percentages of mit get more useful as you get more, they become harder to acquire- the numerical increase necessary to go up one percent increases. The curve makes it so that each *point* of mitigation is equally valuable, compensating for the fact that each *percentage point* of mitigation is *not* equally valuable. or do the math yourself: Mit % = 1 - 1/((M/10500)*3 +1) Where M is the raw mitigation number. either way - mitigation is not useless.
Let's get back to the point: go for the low hanging fruit. Hint : the low hanging fruit isn't mitigation in diminshing returns curve!!!!! Especially considering your temp mit buffs. You seem to understand the math enough to quote it. How can you believe mitigation returns more oomph back on your resource investment? Are you trying to argue the word 'useless'? Ok let me rephrase my statment. [size="small"]It is extremely foolish and in fact detrimental to survivability to spend resources on mitigation past 60%.[/size] BTW I really hate it when people have to use "you're not my class" arguments. You've done this twice now, apparently thinking you are proving something or winning argument points. I do have a L70 tank alt, and have lots of raid experience with many different guardians with many different forms of gear. You may know how to push your CA buttons better than I can. I'm not arguing that. Unfortunately for you, we are talking about game mechanics and survivability not pushing CAs.
It isn't foolish or detrimental to get past 60% mitigation. Nothing changed in EoF to "nerf" mitigation. It's still uncontested damage reduction. The reason the "top tanks" are speccing away from the WIS line is because after EoF parry is actually worth something. Before EoF you couldn't parry orange mobs, even debuffed. Now you can. Parry -vs- mit is something to debate.. saying plain and simple that mitigation is useless past 60% is ridiculous. Or did you not READ my explanation at all? Or do you just not believe it? I don't understand.
[p]oshef, your math is theoretically corret. if you mitigate 50 % and get a 25 % mitigatoin gian you would actually mitigate 50 % more than you did before. The entire issue is that it is now how **** works.[/p][p] When you mitigatie my base mitigation is 5452 % wich is 62.2 % [/p][p]now if i short temp buff abit up to 6213 i will hit 65 % (wich is a 3.8 % benefit)[/p][p]7317 = 67 % wich is a 4.8 % benefit from 1865 mitigation.[/p][p] however from 6213 to 7317 you only get a 2 % upgrade. [/p][p]i suck to much at this (european=danish) hour to do the math, but blindingly obvious it isnt reverse linear as you claim. the problem in the algorhytm sp? (i am danish so english isnt my native language) is that it is aiming for 80 % and not for 100 %. it is however totally not taking that into account so the closer you get to your 80 % mark your reverse gain will be smaller and smaller. I do realise that you would have been correct if the devs developing the system would have had any mathematical skill, but obviously they didnt so your blind faith proves incorrect. [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
It's simple. Mitigation is just too expensive to upgrade or even bother with once you are in fabled gear. The benefit gained from increasing mitigation past 60% is negligible for warriors with their temp-mit buffs compared to avoidance.. Don't believe me? Simply parse a week's worth of raiding with mitigation gear and one with avoidance/hp gear. Of course, try to keep the MT group similar and similar debuffs. A week should be a big enough sample size to avoid these problems.
I think the point here is this, after you reach beyond a certain level of mitigation, increased points in mitigation provide a much smaller return of damage absorption capability for each new point added. So after you reach this level (the value of which is debatable) you can attain much more benefit from focusing on other stats which will provide more benefit for tanking than increasing mitigation. I didn't see anyone say Mitigation was WORTHLESS past the 6000 value, just that increasing beyond that point is ILLOGICAL when much more benefit could be gained by focusing on improving a skill which provides more benefit for each point gained.
Noaani wrote: I disagree... A crusader adds slightly more mitigation but for sacrifice of utility. The crusader avoidance buff cancels the guardian's avoidance buff. i feel the 12.6 parry from the guardian buff is better than the crusader buff. Furthermore, you crusader is FAR more valuable in a dps group lowering THIER hate. If heals are an issue (situational encounters), hydromancy on the conji far out parses pally heals (remember to factor the dammage prevention from thier intercept ward). Furthermore the conji provides sacrifice power and health when needed. Our MT group usually looks like this: Guard Conj Defiler Templar Dirge Swash We often don't have the dirge (50% at best) and we pull in an assasin instead for more hate loc. The OP asked for a qeynos MT group build: Guard Conj Mystic Templar Dirge Swash We've parsed 6 ways from sunday on if the conj should be there vs a druid or crusader. We've found they are viable alternatives, but present too many negative reprocusions for placing them in MT group where they are FAR more effective in other groups. You're milage may vary...
Guardian/Warden/Templar/Mystic/Troubador/Paladin. Conjuror can take the Paladins or the Troubadors place if they aren't on.
Hanes@Nagafen wrote: Where in god's name is your hate increase with that setup? Is the pally tanking? I'd like to think you just mixed up dirge and troub.
I don't even know where to start. Ok yes I do . Let me start by saying I have both a conjuror and paladin alt so I feel like I know these classes pretty well. Issue 1 - 12.6 parry is better than 54% of Paladin avoidance. I find it impossible to conceive of a situation where 12.6 parry is better than 54% of a Paladin's avoidance. Were you aware that with Paladin EOF AA the Paladin has the greatest block % in the game? Close to 30%. In EQ2, block is the only unmitigated avoidance. Epics gain +hit making non-block avoidance much less effective. In other words, block pwns everything else in epic combat. Issue 2 - Hydromancer heals more than a Paladin. A Paladin specd in 70% heal crits + master heal spells + EOF Heal line heals more than the hydromancer pet. The only thing the hydro has on a Paladin is it can be resummoned for unlimited healing power. However, I don't see how this utility trumps intercedes or stackable wards (w/mystic) preventing damage in the first place. And heck, while we're at it see Issue 1 above. I don't know where/what you parsed but it is not uncommon for a Paladin avoidance to stop 15-20% of damage on a tank before it even lands. I'm talking about end boss raid mobs not trash. This is probably even higher on trash fights. I have not parsed hydromancer avoidance in a raid because frankly a conjuror is a dps machine. No raid conjurer I have ever met is specd into hydro. Why would you make a conjuror a crappy healer instead of a dps machine? Issue 3 - Hate You aren't going to do very well without multiple bards in a raid. Most of EOF requires blade dance (bard AA AOE immunity) and superior hate management. Issue 4 - Druid vs. Conj in MT Warden preferred, fury if you don't have a warden. The rest are not even close. I guess you could argue illusionist in MT group instead. Or Paladin, for certain mobs. But a warden is by far the best choice. Is your warden just not very good? The short list of what a warden brings: fast cures, group heals, heals over time, +melee skills on guardian (helps with hate _a lot_).
Hanes@Nagafen wrote: In non-PVP servers, there's two setups that you see over and over again. Both share some classes: Guardian/ (Berserker) Defiler/ (Mystic) Templar Dirge Warden / (Fury) And the 6th spot depends on the guild setup. If you've got 2 troubs and a solid 2nd tank group for AE/add hate control this spot is usually a coercer. The coercer provides extra power, +dps on the MT/dirge, and heal crits among other things. Coercer If your raid doesn't have some of these requirements listed above you'll probably see Swashbuckler/Assassin This is because the swashy/assassin setup provides ~500+ hate/s to the tank. (2000hate/s avg. * 26% transfer avg). The coercer's added few % in hate gain don't provide near ~500 hate/s. No, two hate buffs don't stack. One hate buff (biggest) + one hate transfer. == Any other setup just doesn't really hold up too well under load. By load I mean > 15k dps and EOF raid zones. We currently have topped 30k+ dps and 25k+ zone parses, and I know some guilds that claim to do 30k+ zones and I believe them. So how on earth are you going to keep hate and keep the MT up with less than optimal MT group?
Ok, I'm sorry but I need to but in here. As to the Guard who thinks he know's best over the Assassin, you might not. My first toon was my Guardian, I have played the game from the very beginning. I also have a Brigand, started that one later on in the game. I know how to play both very proficiently. There are other classes that I have not played, but, I have a very good feel on how they work. My point being is just because one person does not play a particular class, doesn't mean he does not know how the class works. Now, I don't raid that much more on my Guard, but take my Brigand for guild needs, but I still know how to tank with the best of them. Now to get to the OP's original topic. Here is my ideal MT Raid Group: Guardian Templar Defiler Dirge Illusionist Assassin For the life of me I can't stand having more then 2 healers in the MT group. And I'm sorry, but if you don't have some kind of Hate Transfer and Hate Increase you are going to **** your Raids over-all DPS. Having both will let your DPS go harder and go faster. Some would rather have a Coercer over the Dirge for the Hate Increase but the Dirge brings more over-all benefits to the MT group. Plus the Dirge will give the MT Raid Group DKTM, which is one of the BEST, if not the BEST, Bard AA Abilities. I can understand some people wanting that third type of healer in there, for the other stat buffs, defensive buffs, or what have you, but Templar/Defiler should be the only two you need, with having the Dirge and Illusionist. Oh yeah, back to that whole get as much mitigation as you can thing. Once you are in Fabled Gear if you still need the Wisdom line you are a **** and only gimping yourself. Your AA points would be better spent down the Agi or Int lines for defense/parry. The diminishing returns over 60% is just not worth working towards.
I am not from a PVP Server, however my guild is Qeynos aligned so my experience in T7 raiding has been entirely with qeynos classes. When we raid, our MT group setup is almost identical every raid. But the 6th spot rotates frequently depending on encounter. Templar Mystic Swashie Dirge Guardian (me) And our 6th spot is typically a paladin for the extra mitigation yes, but I think moreso for the hate reduction he can put on our mystic. We rarely have a warden in the MT group and frankly sometimes it's due to lack of healers in the raid period and the warden is better utilized in a group that doesn't have a healer. Also once the raid mob has been debuffed, it's not uncommon for the defiler or templar to concentrate on healing me alone when the other has to do something else (mystic debuffing, or either helping heal another group, etc.) With this setup we have broken 19k parses on mobs, and about 14-15k zonewide. I realize those aren't great numbers, but we're still learning and frankly Hate has been a huge issue for us and our mages have not been able to go all out all the time. There are several fixes for this, first a foremost is group setup with a dirge and swashie for the hate benefits is what we do. Second, I've maintained my STR 4/4/8/8 STA 5/4/8/8 KoS achievement spec for the sole purpose of increased DPS = increased Hate, and the raw increased hate gain from the STR line. Lastly is the other groups in the raid and their setup, and how they assist and when they start attacking a raid mob. We use a main assist player (lately a wizard, and he does a fine job) And as long as he gives me about 3-5 seconds to sit there and generate some hate before the raid engages full out... I don't have hate issues. My other thread in here ("AA respec decision, need input") is discussing some other hate control ideas atm. So that's my input from a Qeynos aligned guild on a non-PVP server. We just cleared half of FTH last night, parsing 13-16k most fights, and obtained our first fabled set piece (silly paladin forearms *sigh*)
Githil@Permafrost wrote: Having 3 healers in the maintank group is a must for EOF content. Defieler, warden, templar are a sick combo that provide not only buffs, but group heals and reactives or soulwards. Each healing class is good at a particular aspect of healing. All 3 together cover all the bases. Mit is over rated at the high end of the game. Personally, I have lost almost 500 Mit while picking up avoidence. Avoidence makes a huge difference in the game after EOF was released and I can tell a difference in all the raid zones in the game. It's not hard to reach 60% avoidence self-buffed as a guardian. But, it is hard to reach 60%+ Avoidence. In a group setting, guardians are reaching 70% Avoidence. It makes a HUGE difference in survivability. If you're just starting to raid and don't have a lot of threat-proc gear, you're going to want 2 hate transfers in the main tank group. If you're in Qeynos, do the templar, mystic, warden, guardian/zerker, swash, and dirge. If you are really having power issues, then throw in the coercer, but, remember that your raid force needs power regen especially when you're only parsing 10k on mobs with 1million+hps. So try and spread out the love. Raid tanking is a fun and challenging task. As your guild gets better geared, so will you. So tanking, and surviving damage will get better over time. Get yourself a good tower shield and do something like STR+INT or AGI+INT and have fun!
