Hm your right sry, but i seen this spell work i must say it did add to mobs missing alot, but it was vs 70S epic trash mobs. Thanks i stand wrong o well . But it is a nice spell from the way i have seen it in use. ONE more um we as warden should buff avoidance anyways? Truste me this spell works very nicely. Mybe it's bug tho to like templar's single target reactor's which some times has no casting time. Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-13-2006 01:57 PM
Well about showing us getting outhealed... hum. How could you do that? I mean the numbers I posted was with a cleric with only the passive spell haste, not with the 8 point AA ability to remove cast times completely and reduce recast. I don't even know if anyone has the full 50 AA points yet....when they do it'll really get ugly too. Being outhealed was very rare before if it ever happened on harder mobs. Getting beat by 30% now on a harder mob is just bad now, plus when I won the parse I was in G1 I believe and was using my group hot at times for extra oumph I think. I'll try writing up a spreadsheet showing the difference in healing numbers.... think that's the only way to go. I'll base it on the model from the templar forums based on mob hitting once per sec, once per 2 secs and once per 3 secs. See how that goes. Then I'll add in spell haste AA plus the 8 point ability with us in the group (because it's not likely but still showing that we're trying to be the most reasonable possible to show the disparity), jester's cap being alternated between us and an inquis and the bard passive buff. How can you show the difference when there are no cast timers? Weird... hum.... I'll have to group with someone who actually has it to see how it actually works vs spell description (like jester's cap that's only 25% spell haste despite the description). See how that works out.... plus I'll leave out heal crits. I found out, reactives CAN heal crit making them absorb more damage. Donno when I'll be done, I mean... new raid zone and all.... I'll work on it when I'm contested camping I guess. Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-13-2006 03:03 PM
Ok well, I need some help on builing this model. I want it to be as accurate as possible but not sure how to structure it. Here are some of the things I found out: With passive haste from cleric AAs and bard spell haste the cast times on cleric vs wardens are: Inquisator Warden Solo special 2 sec > 1.7 sec 2 sec > 1.9 Small heal 2 sec > 1.7 sec 1 sec > .9 sec Big heal 3 sec > 2.5 sec 1.5 sec > 1.4 sec Group special 5 secs > 4.2 sec 3 sec > 2.8 sec The bard spell haste is actually 6.8% spell haste for group with 8 points into the ability. Now how should I build this model? I feel it would miss the big picture if I left out the group reactive from Inquisators since the cast time is pretty drastically reduced. Here's the assumptions I was thinking of building it on, lemme know what you think. Start off with no reactives or hots on the tank. Even though it's unrealistic and will make our numbers higher comparatively, just feel it's better that way. Only do one model with the mob hitting every 2 seconds for an amount over the reactive amount. Have the healer lead off with solo reactive, then group. Healer will prioritize casting in the following order solo special (hot/reactive), then group, then large heal, then small heal. Have a tank with infinite hit points and just show healing numbers. Having a tank with a set amount of health is unrealistic given clerics buff a lot more hps. Do the model over 2 minutes, average raid length. Exclude jester cap (with 25% off recast and cast times) and the 8 point AA ability that clerics get. It would be just too hard to build into the model. If this model shows a large disparity, then you can count on those 2 abilities furthering it. How many hits before expiring is the solo reactive of cleric's lvl 68 ability? Sound good? Any suggestions? Mayi - LoC Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-14-2006 01:22 AM
Sounds difficult but may be usefull. As you said it will not take into account lots of things warden miss but at least if we come back with proof that will heal the same than other (or less) we will be able to argue that we need debuff or buff to keep up with the other.
Clerics buff hp, my guild friends alt 50 templar can add 1k+ Shamen buff hp through sta (less important with capping) and hp buffs. Druids get a 321 master 1 hp buff by level 70 Theres a significant issue with numbers here when regens work best if a tank has a lot of hp. This would suggest a balance issue. Not sure why this is factored in and the druids are lowest of the low on hp buffs but it was of interest to me today. Would be interesting if someone has more hard information on this (it's 2am too late for me to get hold of the entire spell information right now). If someone could sit down and do the math on the hp buff capabilities of the other healer spell lines you will see why we often feel like we are healing less. If theres less hp, there is less 'give' in the system when stacking up regens making it much harder to balance heal and power use. A bigger hp buff would go a long way to helping wardens bring more to the buff table.
Mybe the test should inclued with and with out hp buffs? I do agree when need hp buff badly, but what about sandstorm that need to have % to avoidance. If someone point me to hp buff of other classes i will do the math.
Using purely hp buffs, no specials, no stat buffs, just plain and simple hp buffs both group and single target i get these numbers. I specifically avoided the percentage hike of HP because this is difficult to factor for a simple snapshot analysis. I also excluded stamina buffs because most raid tanks are able to max out their stamina. I have however included the relevant stat buffs in brackets so you can see where they are. All spells used adept 3 and assuming only that class is using their HP buffs (equivalent of a single group healer) Templar - 2x L58 buffs and 1x L61 buff = 1717 HP on the MT and 873 on the group Inquisitor - 2x L58 buffs (L61 buff is a stamina buff) = 1125 HP on the MT and 281 on the group Defiler - 2x L58 buffs and 1x L60 buff = 1701 HP on the MT and 863 on the group Mystic - 2x L58 buffs (L60 buff is a stamina buff + L65 marquee 17.5% HP and 17.5% atribute buff for 2 min power drain) = 844 HP on the MT and 281 on the group Warden - 1x level 58 buff (other L 58 buff is the same as Aspect of the Hawk Wis / power buff, the L60 shamen buffs compare to our benediction of the wild Wis / Agi buff and the L61 buff in the cleric line is our Protection of the oak line where we have 214 magic resist and the templar has 592 HP buff, inquisitor has 70ish stamina) = 281 HP on the MT and group Fury - 1x level 58 buff (other L 58 buff is the Int / power buff see above for similar comparrisons) = 281 HP on the MT and group Edit: changed colours for an easier read Message Edited by Rappy on 04-15-2006 08:13 AM
Well pre AAs I believe there was some balance. The way I believe they setup the system was to give us no hps buffs on purpose. We added next to no hps, but in exchange got faster casting heals. We could pop off heals way faster then other healers before, but being able to time heals well is powerful so in exchange we got no hp buffs. That's why I'm freaking out clerics can reduce their cast times so much, especially with that 8 point AA ability because they have NO cast times with it. All semblance of balance is gone. We can also cast our heals more often then other healers too, with the exception of inquisators who could cast their heals just as often. The only difference is the inquisator's heals are weighted with longer cast times and shorter recasts and us with shorter casts and longer recasts. Now that inquisators can shortened their cast times they can flat out heal more often PLUS it's all upfront healing.
And there I was thinking our faster direct heals were there to offset the inferiority that the regen speciality heal has when measured against reactives and wards for burst damage.
Nothing is balance, but unless warden try hard get things fix we will stay same. Their to few of us that care, or don't come and post. Some people want call other wardens cry babys like me cuase how unbalance thing got after expack. I never came to the forums untill i seen my lvl 65 spell that just set me off. I was look forward to new spells boost my defensive side of my warden, cuase thats were we are really weak. When i made one at the time i was told we were sec best healer all around, and things has change so much since then. At the time i was still to low lvl didn't see all the changes.and now i'm lvl 70 and do not feel our buffs are anywere close to other defensive healer or to that matter any healer! I'm no expert at eq2 , but we need people who are willing stand up help everone out, and that care see thing change for the better. Everone need get on same page, and try get things change. By next expack hit's we are not going be getting any heal upgrade but i think 1-2 the most. What we have now we will be useing to kill, and heal against 70-80 mobs. Just think if we are good at some points now how good will we be in next expack if nothing is changed? please Don't say (u don't know what next expack will bring us) cuase i heard that at lvl 60 before this one was out >. Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-15-2006 11:45 PM Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-15-2006 11:45 PM
Well I partially finished the numbers. I calculated the healing numbers over 1 minute (got lazy so didn't do 2 minutes) and came up with the following numbers: Warden: 38148 Inquisator: 35527 I didn't think we'd win... thought about the reason why as well and more about how we fit into the picture. I then broke it down into the first 20 secs vs the last 40 secs: Warden: 11112 Inquis: 8820 Hum, so the remaining 40 secs looks like: Warden: 27036 Inquis: 26707 So from what I gather, with the bard passive spell haste along with the inquisator passive spell haste we heal relatively evenly once reactives have been put up. With both a Warden and Inquisator going in naked Wardens get an edge because we can put our spells up faster giving us a lead at the beginning. The reason I believe is the long cast time on their group reactive (4.2 secs). I also thought about my methodology. If the mob hits every 2 secs then it's about even healing. If the mob hits any faster then the inquis will heal more because the reactive will go off more often and if it hits less often then our healing will win because the hots will tick regardless contributing to more healing total. Another thing is as more spell haste is added to the inquisator his numbers will go up more comparatively. His cast times get futher reduced etc... Something else of note. In my model there were 2 times our hot was recast before the duration had expired to max healing, plus there was also 2 times we lost a tick off our small heal because it was spam healed. With spell haste when you spam heal your small hot the new spell hits before your last tick can go off cancelling it out. So from what I can see, we now heal evenly with an inquisator but it depends on the situation. When things get hary and there might be lots of mobs, the cleric will pull his group through better then us. If it's one mob that's strong (say a named) who hits slow we might have the advantage... in healing only. This doesn't address the lopsided buffs in favor of any other class but solely healing potential. We might also lose lots of our hots because the tank is full health etc..., but a cleric can also lose part of his direct heal in the same way. The difference is the bulk of our healing is our hot. Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-18-2006 12:14 AM
About real life healing numbers. Anyone else having the experience that Inquisators are outhealing you by 30% min per raid now, or is that just me? Can't figure out why, must be that he takes the solo reactive but I'm getting destroyed on the heal parse.
Well we did not have a Inquisators in are raids, but they were letting the templar do parse healing never could get straight number. That was sec reason why i stop playing warden. A guy last night said wardens are great back up healer's! Not my waords, but words right out of another wardens mouth. Kind funny he was trying talk me in playing my warden again. I thought all healers were to be equal, but i have had few people say their are great back up healers. I guess that what wardens are to be back up healer's, and from looking at the way we work with are heals, and buff it very true.
Backup my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. We can heal fine all the time it's just that we have no role in raids because of poor buffs. About druids outhealing inquisators, you'd think so but maybe it's just my guild but those times when we should be winning I'm 5% behind min instead. It's getting on my nerves ~
ah u should not get upset. i just saying what been told to me that all. I really careless anymore about wardens or infact eq2 only thing devs know is how to nerf a char. Sry i just thought it was little funny on how guy was trying to get me play warden again, and what he said in telling me i should . Should never get mad over a game such waste time when their are so many games play. o in raiding, and hard mobs we are best suited for backup healer >.Just so u don't mis my point i never really try said are healing , but in are buff we our. Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-25-2006 06:22 PM
Jester's Cap is working correctly, it is only people's inability to do understand math that prevents them from recognizing it The Shaman AA is friend-only, and cannot be casted on self, has a recast of 3 minutes and only lasts 30 seconds. It's alright, but not awesome. The Cleric AA is group based, HALVES the casting times of all spells (not all casting times, 100% means twice as fast, not 0 cast time), has a 5 minute recast and again, only lasts 30 seconds.
Yea yea, found out about spell haste after. It's cast time/1 + (spell haste multiple). About Tunare's Watch, who says it's useless? I've found a great use. For heroic opportunities to advance the eye symbol fast. Who says it's useless now!
Someone did some text on way heals work with reactor/wards are first to be use then regens kicks in untill reactor/ward are up again. If am i wrong on this please correct me. I add this i just thought about a text i read few weeks ago about how reactor/wards/regen work togather. In any case i still pissy about that being said, but few people have said we were back up healer's. Please don't try use my playing ability in saying (it just me) I have people wanting me play hem again, but i will not untill our buff is bring up to par with other classes. Are buff is are weakest point right now, but this why they said we were great back up healers way are heals work with reactors and wards + are buffs. Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-27-2006 09:18 PM Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-27-2006 09:27 PM
wardens are by no means a back-up healer. from all of the information i've seen, we parse better than any other priest as far as healing. this simple fact puts us as the best healer in the game. add on the regen proc from spores, which procs like a tiger trapped in a raquetball court with a bunch of midgets, and our wisdom and power buff to keep the tank trucking even longer, and there's no reason why we should be anywhere but the first group of any raid. uber buffs or not, you just can't let go of that extra umph.
