Slayers model uses the maximum amount for the adept 3 My model uses the mean heal and as such appears lower, the reason for leading off with the large heal in my model is because to sustain for 60 seconds it minimises the heal clashes, there are none! If you lead off with the small heal you consistently build a 0.5 second clash into the heal system which runs for the duration of the minute. Leading off with the large heal maximises efficiency over 60 seconds. Leading off with the small heal only maximises efficiency for the first 3 casts. Edit: With regard to the fury BiTF if you assume it lands 50% of the time on the tank at less than 50% hp it heals for 1042 for 146 power cost (nice heal). It has a 1.5 second cast time and a 6 second recast time. I believe it is incorrect to assume the 50% of the time landing on tank below 50% but it would be best to assume it is cast first for a fury because that is the time when a spike lands that the tank is below 50%. It would then heal on average for 1389 at adept 3. Fury 0 1 1.5 - 1389 2 2.5 3 - 1036 (average not top, its stupid to assume a heal will land for 100%) 3.5 4 4.5 - 584 5 5.5 Total = 3009 I do wish people would stop bringing up back into the fray, we should not be measuring ourselves up to the best burst healer and pointing out how unprivaledged we are. If you look at the mystic heals then cant cast 3 heals together without running into problems with recast timers. Wardens only have a 0.5 second issue after 60 seconds making us the most efficient and well organised heal group of them all. If you think about this simply. Most tanks have 7k hp, 3k is hardly a dent and when it comes to burst healing even if 3k lands on the tank the back into the fray is not going to be doing a double heal. The situation is more likely to be below. Fury have their own problems and because BiTF is situational (situations where you can definatly land a heal on a tank below 50% hp otherwise you waste the power) Fury 0 1 1.5 - 695 2 2.5 3 - 1036 (average not top, its stupid to assume a heal will land for 100%) 3.5 4 4.5 - 584 5 5.5 Total - 2315 for 466 power All these heal models mean that if you are assuming a tank is taking the kind of damage where he goes from 7k hp to less than 1k hp you need 2 healers, its that simple. No class, not even fury can handle that kind of damage. Bear in mind also that because the non druid healing classes have such slow cast times, if you allow 1 second for lag/ reaction time, 3 second for a heal, thats 4 seconds of regular dps before you can get a direct heal on. In that time a warden has already landed 2 heals in essence, druids alike are the best damage spike healers because they can get heals off more quickly. Fury are definately pick of the 2 but at greater power cost. Message Edited by Rappy on 04-07-200603:04 AM
Fury L = h 932-1140, c 1,5s, rc 8.5s, cost: p 203 S = h 525 - 642, c 1s, rc 5s, cost: p 117 Warden L = h 656-798 and 84-103 ps for 10s, c 1.5s, rc 10s, cost: p 254 S = h 349-482 and 60-80 ps for 6s, c1s, rc 5s, cost: p 146 Templar L = h 1399-1709, c 3s, rc 11.5s, cost: p 308 S = h 757-962, c 2s, rc 6s, cost: p 170 Inquisitor L = h 1166-1425, c 3s, rc 10s, p 254 S = h 657-803, c 2s, rc 5s, p 146 Defiler L = h 1399-1709, c 3s, rc 11.5s, cost: p 254 hp 254 S = h 757-962, c 2s, rc 6s, cost: p 146 hp 246 Mystic L = 1166-1425, c 3s, rc 8s, cost: p 254 S = 657-803, c 2s, rc 4s, cost p 146 here again is the table of classes Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-07-200601:04 PM
[average not top, its stupid to assume a heal will land for 100% 3.5] NO it would be stupid to assume that i meant your going get 100% of your heal all the time, and since their is a chart posted in this thread showing the low, and max .It is reasonable to assume we will be out heal in this time frame do to short comingos such low direct heal amount . [My model uses the mean heal and as such appears lower, the reason for leading off with the large heal in my model is because to sustain for 60 seconds it minimises the heal clashes, there are none! If you lead off with the small heal you consistently build a 0.5 second clash into the heal system which runs for the duration of the minute] Sure if we lead off with small heal u will gain time, but that mean's out of all the healer's even in 1.5 or in 5.5 we have the lowest amount of healing WITH A GREATER POWER COST sry, but to me that unfair. let's be fair here people why should we have to live with such small direct heal's when no other class does, and with great power cost?This is a tweak needed to are direct heal the will help (not fix) in are short coming to spike damage . [All these heal models mean that if you are assuming a tank is taking the kind of damage where he goes from 7k hp to less than 1k hp you need 2 healers, its that simple. No class, not even fury can handle that kind of damage.] I don't want cover 7k spike damage in 5.5 sec or in 1.5 sec, and no healer can.We should be able cover larger amount health then we do at this time in are direct heal's.If we get our direct heal's move up 80/20, 90/10 hot are hp buff 800 we might see a change from dev's! (WHICH AT THIS TIME WOULD BE 100% BETTER THEN WE ARE NOW!)It will be easyer to work with in the spell's we have. Imo i think it fair and have right to ask for these change's.I also assume unless we all come to 1 point of view nothing will ever change! [Bear in mind also that because the non druid healing classes have such slow cast times, if you allow 1 second for lag/ reaction time, 3 second for a heal, thats 4 seconds of regular dps before you can get a direct heal on. In that time a warden has already landed 2 heals in essence, druids alike are the best damage spike healers because they can get heals off more quickly. Fury are definately pick of the 2 but at greater power cost.] Bare in mind it's also taking 2 heals cover other classes large heal's AT A HIGHER POWER COST, and it still lower then any other healer in same amount of time frame.Also i like to add fury power cost of their large heal p 203 now small heal power cost p 117. Now wardens power cost larger heal p 254 same as all other healing classes besides fury and templar having the highest at 308. Now are power cost of small heal 146 same as all other classes besides fury and templar but the templar has the highest p170. (STILL NO ADVANTAGE BUT ONLY DISAVANTAGE) Even if u don't agree with me atleast can we all come to one point of view on something? We all know spike damage and are buff's is a problem but in order get something fix we all need to agree at some point. Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-07-200604:12 PM
[I do wish people would stop bringing up back into the fray, we should not be measuring ourselves up to the best burst healer and pointing out how unprivaledged we are. If you look at the mystic heals then cant cast 3 heals together without running into problems with recast timers. Wardens only have a 0.5 second issue after 60 seconds making us the most efficient and well organised heal group of them all.] Sry but the fury got us here to! (only reason i did post this her was fact their so much info in my other post. i'm starting wonder about rappy, and everthing in he post just not true.) Since doing this text i have also seen we use most power, and getting least amount of health. That not fair at all why should we have the highest power cost with such lower dierct heal's combined? add note: Funny templar's got alot bigger direct heal's, and are wanting 25% shorter casting timer's. Here i try ask for 30% increase in are direct heal's! (just little funny to me lol) Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-07-200604:10 PM Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-07-200604:29 PM Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-07-200604:31 PM
So in essence the 'spike damage problem' for wardens looks to be from the tank dropping at the 5-7 sec mark for wardens? Btw, what does everyone think of changing the avoidance bonus from sandstorm to a mitigation boost instead? Say maybe 400 mitigation to group?
mikemcmodmike wrote:So in essence the 'spike damage problem' for wardens looks to be from the tank dropping at the 5-7 sec mark for wardens? Btw, what does everyone think of changing the avoidance bonus from sandstorm to a mitigation boost instead? Say maybe 400 mitigation to group? Their's alot people think sandstorm is all ready nice spell, and having anything change on it will more likely get other healing classes in a up roar . If your going try get a spell change why not just ask them to put Tunare's Watch in recycle bin hit empty, try again? (i like that saying, but don't remeber who used it in a post) Tunare's Watch as a ancient spell should be a nice spell, and not weak useless spell as it is! IMO this should be ON HIGH Priority! They should take this spell make it in to 500+ mitigation single target buff with 700 + to heat and cold mitigation, and have power cost 350 , 3 min recast timer, 2 sec casting time , and last for 36's root's caster . That more of a ancient spell in line with us! Reason why i say 500+ simple fact as having it single target will not at all make it over powering, and In having a root place on it so u can not use sandstorm at same time. Also like see the effect were tree growing out of the tank when it hit's like are old t3 spell did. This would be a adding a tool to us that we need badly, besides i have enough useless spell's as it is! Why not take one of are useless spell's making it a better all around tool? This would add flavor to are class! Besides if spike damage coming in your going have make choice what to do with 2 sec casting time. I like the root and 3 min recasting time ideal it will force u makeing your mind up in how it would be best to use, and when to use it. In raid this 1 spell that will be ask for bring us up to par with fury's. Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-08-200603:07 PM
Wow I don't read the boards for a few days, and slayer goes off again. Why complain and stress everyone out over something like this? What is the point? If you don't like it, then play another. The things you bring up aren't constructive critism, it's plain old bashing, and hate towards the warden. Most wardens on the boards are happy with what we have. Sure their can be improvements, but you make it out to be that we are at a lower tier than all healers. Again I state, if you don't like it, then play another class. If you think in your mind that a templar or defiler has better direct heals, then why not go play one? If you think that we can't handle spike dmg, then you really don't know how to play your class. Every class has querks, every class could use improvements, but the bottom line is, most are pretty happy with what they have right now. Let's try and support that notion and work together for CONSTRUCTIVE critism on our class. And again I state "I LOVE MY WARDEN" Any other healer to me is second class. Take Care
ok i think the wardens should get some type of upgrades i do not have a warden but everytime i group with a warden the group seaks an other healer becuase the warden cant keep up and all the wardens i group with say they cant do it. just the other day i had to leave a group for them to find an other healer for a quest that they were doing. when im grouped with any other class of healers theres only need for one healer in most cases. so i do agree that they can help out and change some things on the warden
I agree. Wardens have good buffs but people usually prefer to group with a priests that have good heals or better dmg capabilities. It's no wonder you don't see as many wardens. They could use an upgrade.
I take the bet that wonderwolf is somehow linked to slayerwarrior Most of the warden on this forum dont have any problem to be grouped i think from what i have read. Its only depend on how well you play, and warden may be one of the most difficult priest to master. Its true we need some improvment but not to the point of being at the moment incapable of healing a group.
Agreed. I have no problem solo healing any group content. Our heals I feel despite seeing a little dip in comparative healing numbers from the 5-7 second period are fine too. I think the misconception might be that we heal for less, when in reality it's just that we have inferior buffs so we have a need to heal more and have your heals well timed. I swear, if I see another 'group looking for shaman for hof' again I'm going to spazz on them =p General concensus seems to be it's best to bring a cleric and shaman for anything. Btw, if you do the math and hit your 1 sec, then 1.5 sec heal then solo hot right after you'll notice the instant heal time ticks right at 5 secs then at 7 secs (if no AA line in speeding up your hot). This more then compensates in healing up a damage spike.
Who can blame them? You get same healing (better in my oppinion vs spike) 1-1.5k more hp, debuffs and the psycological aspect of it, your tanks hp doesnt move much. I agree with those that say our hp/sek is not the problem, but we have worse buffs and no debuffs. Our now slightly better dps can not be said to be a compensation for this, not for a defencive healer (not for ANY healer IMO).
Agreed. Especially since shaman and clerics don't really have that much lower dps, they just never bother to buff intelligence so the difference seems larger. Our 1 extra nuke doesn't make that much of a difference. I believe the situation is that you can solo heal zones like halls of fate if you have enough upgrades and a good tank. It's fun for me but lots might see it as stressful. It's the 'you only need enough healing to survive' thing, where if you heal well you can make it through. That being said, so can other classes. Atm though, most prefer to bring a shaman and cleric because if you bring both those classes it's not only doable, but easy. Strength of spells aside, any cleric and shaman can do it with a mediocre tank so that's the preferred method to do the zone from the looks of it. I never knew that was the perception until speaking to others. If you disagree, try doing the zone with out of guildies where you haven't earned their trust as a good healer yet. You'll see what I mean. Guaranteed if you try doing the zone they will pickup a cleric or shaman as a 2nd healer. and would prefer the cleric and shaman combo.
I agree with u on buffing, but i just think your picking on the wrong spell imo. It should not be 1 spelll that brings are buffing in line with other classes, and it will just make it easyer for them to focus on getting the stun nerf. I much rather like see are group hp bump up to 800 and have a 600-800 hp add to 1 of are single target buff like primitive instinct or a combo in that area. Are buff ARE ****(everone says this), AND why in the world we have lose some gain some that all ready is ****? Like i said before not as if i could not solo hof , but that fact is tank wants templar or a shaman their even if are healing is same. the fact is they have 5 times better hp buffs then we do. I know with templar and a shaman they get are tank around 4-5k more hp. imo i don't think getting are group hp buff bump up and add a hp well at all make us overpower but it would make are buff more inline with us. Add note: Wonderwolf said what she want to i had no input on that if i did just ready my post u know what my views are . Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-10-200611:49 AM
a few thoughts. 1) since all of our heals are regens, when we get into spam healing situations, we end up recasting heals before they have fully ticked out their regen. (i do everything i can to avoid doing this, but there are just situations when you need that burst again before the ticks are done) so sometimes, we're losing that "full-regen" effect that we would otherwise get = cut a few hundred off of each round of casting the heals. 2) did anyone feel that there was anything wrong with our heals before they did the initial combat changes? or our buffs for that matter? i don't know what the general consensus is, but i really enjoyed playing my warden pre-DoF. since then, i've been complaining and finding problems all the time. it's been kinda depressing for me, and subsequently i've been playing my brigand a lot more.
Before revamp we were the 2nd best buffing class with the best buffer being a templar. The combo of guard, warden and troub was sick giving the guard 100% avoidance (we did Drayek with 6 people with that combo at 50). The templar added the most mitigation, with their group reactive adding extra mitigation. Since combat revamp, avoidance has been nurfed about 4 times over and capped at 80%. Like I said, pre combat revamp the best buffers were: Templar > Warden > Mystic > Inquis > Defilers > Furies or so. You could argue to interchange Inquis and Defiler positions. Now it's: Templar > Defiler > Mystic > Inquis > Wardens > Furies. We've been hit the hardest imo with the revamp out of defensive buffs. Combine that Defilers, Mystics and Inquis get offensive buffs as well and it's even more lopsided. We also lost our str buffs too so only have the tank solo buff for attack.
Nice point never thought of that , even pointing out another DISAVANTAGE about are direct heal's which is even better then i had posted, and incase of spaming we would have at that point lowest direct heal. Even if u point out having low direct heal at 50/50 is is a totall DISAVANTAGE when in trying to deal with spike damage people are unwilling to agree :/. SRY before revamp i was still was low lvl, and had a pally at lvl 47 end up selling hem cuase how bad they mess hem up, but since then been fix. I guess before revamp if u combo are direct heal with regen hitting right after we could heal at that time for the highest amount of health. Even now if both hit same time we still have the lowest direct heal go figur went from highest to the lowest :/. Before revamp we went from 2nd buffing class to the to sec lowest buffing class. Sound like wardens got raw in of the deal , like pally did. No one ever going agree on how get us back inline out of the fact most say were ok and are unwilling to look at really problems. Sry i can some what see your point on sandstorm i just don't think that will fix are buffing problem even with 400 more mit to me that still low number, and can not compare to fury mit buff >:/. add note : sry but verdant bliss and sylvan streams can not be cast untill after that hot runs out so u were wrong about the dierct heals not getting full regen part. I alse left my point of view up just so u can see i will change my mind if i'm not right thanks! Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-10-200604:53 PM
This is simply NOT true any longer.. they made our heals recast in the same amount of time as the duration so it is impossible to lose any regen. The only exception is that ss recasts at 5s and regen runs 6s so you can lose 1 tick if you spam it (according to rappy, I haven't tested myself but I'll trust he knows what he's talking about). 1 tick does not = hundreds of hp in healing; m1 is less than 100 per tick even on the biggest tick you can get out of it.
