We have been totally screwed over in this expansion

ive actually been quite happy with the way the expansion did to wizzies personally, but then again my wizzie is just a high lvl alt that i play for a bit of fun and all my raiding is done on the zerker

but i do know my wizzie well enough inside out to realise it wasnt half that bad and i liked the upgrades and also fusion which i already have ad3 ready for me. We are not a pet class but i must admit with 2 guild wizzies in grp both laying forge of ro down and nuking away i never once noticed the lack of health in it, maybe because i havent came around to soloing the wiz this time around yet as there is always groups going around to take part in.

Why anyone with more armor, hp, defense (have you seen a predator tank in defensive mode?) should be able to be even EQUAL to sorcerors baffles me. Sorcerers have nothing but damage, no utility, and no chance to take shots from heroics while I have scouts being the tanks in exp groups. Rangers are pretty good in relation to us, but that means we're both too low. Assassins do more than us which shouldn't be the case, but it's not that they do too much we just do too little. Summoners are insane atm, way more. In groups we're okay, but I'm getting beaten by necro pets sometimes and pet/caster totals blow me away. Solo we're better than most. Raids we really need work.

Our sustainable DPS on a single target cannot get to 700 on a single target with adept I's either. I could sustain 400 DPS at 60 with ease until I run out of power (our efficiency is pretty bad so that happens before long) but I have all adept 3's. With mobs that are not resistant to fire or cold and few debuffers no wizard is going to get much over 400 DPS on blue-orange cons with adept I's.

I constantly compare my numbers to other wizards I play with and we're averaging no more than 300-500 DPS on 5-8 min single target fights and 600-1000 on 1-2 min 2-5 mob fights.

Please dont start this debate it runs in circles and doesnt end, simply because your asking to lower pred dps, this kind of statement on the wizard end is like saying you want your cake and eat it to in the scouts point of view.

Sorc point - Sorces dont have mitigation where as preds do. Preds can out do the typical wizard with the "right" poison and gear, sorc's cant pay for little tidbits for there dps. Preds have the ability to tank for a short time, mages dont. Preds have the ability to change stances, sorcs dont.

Pred point - Sorc's have the ability to use utility, preds dont. Sorc's have the ability to keep mobs away from them, have several stuns, preds have to tank in order to solo, Preds have to pay for there DPS, sorc's dont.

Both sides are valid, but the aruement is useless simply because your doing the same thing but just diffrent playstyles. None is better than the other.

Anyone who wish's to continue this topic to a meaningless arguement will truely show me how hard headed people can be with opinions to continue a POINTLESS topic. This original topic went on from how sorc's were being nearly matched by summoners, summoners are getting a NERF I dont see why everyone is still worked up.

The best thing ANYONE can do is keep the threads in a positive state, and state fact over opinion.

Preds have better or the same utility than Sorcerers. And pre-LU20 Rangers did not need poison to outDPS a sorcerer and I doubt an assassin need poison to outDPS a sorcerer now. Check theutility overview http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=90215 if in doubt.

Sorcerers get better roots and Predators get better mitigation, thats the main difference. Sorcerers should be slightly ahead of Predators DPS wise, not the other way around as it is now.

"Preds have better or the same utility than Sorcerers. And pre-LU20 Rangers did not need poison to outDPS a sorcerer " Where did you pull this? out of your hat? If we did more damage than you without any poisons that means we were doing over double damage than you on EVERY fight - this just is not true.

Sorcerers should be slightly ahead of Predators DPS wise, not the other way around as it is now." - Wow, I cant believe you just said that. You have made me laugh today and thats not a good thing considering what im laughing about. There is no "one should be above the other" there is simply one does better vs multi targets, one tends to excell on single target. It does not mean one is better than the other, sorc's still do great damage against single target mobs and its not difficult for a sorc to outdamage a ranger/assassin (and the other way around). If I said something like this anywhere - how many sorc's would be in and outcry stating that I am wrong etc. It never ceases to amaze me on how sorc's still have this opinion.

"Preds have better or the same utility than Sorcerers" How so? - no group buffs, situational roots, no stunns, no mez. I dont mind that sorc's have better util than preds(well rangers atleast, I know assassins get little utility (apply poison)). I am saying this to masseman not trying to continue this debate of "what should be better"

And as for that site that you mentioned allow me to quote that please, because you are simply off topic there -"The root of the problem is the way that group buffs currently function in EverQuest 2. Currently, if you're in a group designed to buff melee classes, that group will get much more of a benefit than a group designed to buff caster classes." - What you should be asking is a change to bards, conj's, and enchanters. Not for a damage boost.


Now, I dont wish to continue on debating on "what should be better". Or a damage boost for any class.

Considering that you are wrong I understand you want to switch to another topic - however you brought the Utility issue into this discussion, making wild statements either out of ignorance or a desire to deliberately mislead - I do not know which :smileyhappy:.

Predators can debuff any resist or stat using poison, have several CA based debuffs debuffing poison and defense, (rangers also get perhaps the best elemental debuff in the game), root, stun, stifle (only assassins I believe), an evac that actully work, tracking, pathfinding etc. (I probably forgot some thing). If anything that is more and not less than Sorcerers. I linked that thread because I did'nt want to list all this stuff again.

I am asking for a damage boost either by a native increase in spells or a change to buff classes. And if I remember correctly I was one of the first to realize that the main
source of discrepancy is the way buffs works: Here is what I posted in November last year (which i repost because you appear too lazy to read linked posts):

What is needed is a group buff that shortens casting time, recast AND reduces power cost. As you correctly point out just one or two of the the three will have little effect.

Regarding the efficiency of buffs i can give the following data. On yesterdays raid top DPS were a 59 ranger (790DPS) and a 56 brigand (770 DPS). Both of these had 180 DPS solely from the poison procs. A couple of assassins followed at between 500-600 DPS. The melee DPS group were grouped with a coercer and a dirge, except for one assassin who didnt fit in there.

I was grouped with a 56 Illusionist with my 55 wizard (guess what - intbuffs dont stack anymore between wizard and illlu ) I was nuking constantly without any particular resist issues (mob was a Deception drakota in firemyst gully) - i did not run out of power until the mob was almost dead and the power problem did not reducue my DPS significantly. I clocked around 390 DPS.

To compare this the MT 57 Guardian clocked around 320 DPS and the MA (55 Monk) around 340.

After that we followed with the Shakuto/Makuto pair and Archlich where wizards have serious resist issues and my DPS was so low that it is embarrasing to give the figures on the forums

There seems to be a vast imbalance between the damage increase provided by melee DPS buffers (Dirge/Coercer) and the the Illusionist (unfortunately our trouba was placed in the MT group). 400 DPS i can easily reach in exp groups or solo so I believe the benefit of placing the Illu in a caster DPS group is marginal except for the power regen.

My point is still that either Sorcerer DPS or the caster group buffs needs a revamp. Maybe have alchies make spell ingredients that can provide an additional 200 DPS like poison does for scouts ?

My wizard is still my main, but I don't really see the point in bringing him to a raid when i can do more than 50% more damage with my assassin.
That Sorcerers should on average do higher DPS than Predators have been clearly stated in the famous Moorgard DPS tier post, and is also what makes most sense from a roleplay perspective.
Btw. What level is your wizard ? From the content of your posts I seriously doubt that you have ever brought him along on a raid :smileyhappy:.
Message Edited by masseman on 03-14-200608:43 AM

"Considering that you are wrong I understand you want to switch to another topic - however you brought the Utility issue into this discussion, making wild statements either out of ignorance or a desire to deliberately mislead - I do not know which" - Because I posted pretty much the similar thing in the warlock section, here, and another post in the wizard forums, and then I go in the ranger section and then go do the same thing.. Its like hitting a wall over and over, trying to change hard headed opinionism.

"Predators can debuff any resist or stat using poison, have several CA based debuffs debuffing poison, debuff, (rangers also get perhaps the best elemental debuff in the game), root, stun, stifle, an evac that actully work, tracking, pathfinding etc. (I probably forgot some thing). If anything that is more and not less than Sorcerers. I linked that thread because I did'nt want to list all this stuff again."
- First, our stun only works on non heroics, I dont have stifle, root is situational and works in group situation that is effective once in a blue moon with a 3 min recast, and wizards also get evac. As far as conumables and resists go, perhaps you should ask sony to impliment totems that will debuff resist for you, or asking to change resist debuff poisons into potions. Not asking for extra damage. Asking for extra damage or utility by any means is not valid IMO - espessally with the comming update. However, asking for a change in the way items work puts a diffrent perspective on this.

So we agree then that Predators have some utility, as well as Sorcerers ? That's because ALL classes have utility, it's just that Sorcerers and Predators have the least in the game of all classes.

Let's face it - neither Predators or Sorceres are thought of as a utility class, that is why we are supposed to deal top-notch DPS and small utility. On the other extreme, we have bards which provide small DPS and top-notch utility.

Your argumentation of Sorcerers as a utility class and Predators as class devoid of any utility is neither productive, factually correct or convincing.

And you did'nt answer on the Wizard level question :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by masseman on 03-14-200610:14 AM

No my wizard doesnt raid - And, I posted that simply because you came across as wanting more DPS than the other.. It is that type of thinking and posting that bothers me. I have no problem with sorc's with util, I am not asking for util.. All I am asking is for people to realize that things are there for a reason, things are the way they are for a reason. Dont argue or opinionate about it. Im previous posts on the subject I usually put both sides down on where both feel where ones better than the other.

Yeah I sort of guessed that your wizard is only an excuse for trolling the wizard boards :smileyhappy: - that what I was getting at.
But read up a bit on the utility aspects of your ranger and I guess you'll be happy with that one - especially since you will be leaving wizzies behind in the DPS stats again.

I can say that in the last tier I was fully fabled, with all but 3 spells masters, and well played necros, rangers and swashies, way out DPS me in raids in a high end raiding guild. (iin the last tier and this..so it is a chronic problem)


Rangers are not the kings anymore, but well played necros and swashies can.

Approximate DPS with all classes pets named the same as player so that tools would account for them: This is current Tier, and as a wizzy I have only a few current Tier masters, other spells Adept 3, a few still adept 1 or prior tier master if better than tier 1. I have 20% additional damage through AA though only good for 1 spell per minute. This is fighting tough raid mobs not group mobs:

Necro 1650 DPS
Swashie 850 DPS
Wizzy 590 DPS

BTW I can pull agro easily even doing half or less the DPS of the necro.

I can hit up in 800 DPS if lucky with mob placement and if others slack.

Guaranteed people are using poisons and have good weapons since we raid.

I would happy if wizzy DPS seemed to show up as Tier 1. I seem to be down with zerkers in offensive mode in terms of DPS. Better than healers and pallys.

Not tier 1, even if I don't cast spells that help others and lower my dps.

This has been the case for so long that either
a)sony is afraid of making wizards true tier 1 and we are perma gimped
b)overwealmed, overloaded, and don't play a wizzy
c)parsers are all messed up
d)Our guild doesn't leverage other classes into making wizzy dps higher via debuffs enough.

The necro DPS is so out of whack that when I talk with our necro who constantly gets 50% to 100% more DPS than anyone else he didn't disagree that it is crazy. Though he plays his class well so he does maximize his DPS.


Anonymous Wizzy Level 70 (Don't want to get guildies mad about showing how out of whack the parses show the classes are)
Been playing EQ2 since Day 2 and have had one wizzy or another since then on another account and later on this one.

Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200602:06 PM
Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200602:09 PM

You are lvl 70? you have ice nova and fusion available to you, along with upgraded firey inferno, irradiate.
Yet your only parsing 590? what level was the raid mob? did he have any fire/ice immunities? whats your typical spell chain? how long did the fight last?

Ice Nova Adept 3
Fusion Adept 3
Firestorm Adept 3 (love it even more than my old master 1 inferno)
Irradiate Adept 3 <--edit this was only adept 1
If I am not very careful on use of fusion, the zerker main raid tank will lose agro to me(Amazing how it is not lost to the necro, but then again it is burst DPS to multiple mobs)
My INT is about 560.(potions + equipment. AAs only 20. Mostly on the wis line so I get bonus DPS.
I do lose some DPS using Master 2 arctic icicles which shows as maintank DPS and that takes time out of my DPS sequence. I do put damage procs on any melee class in my group in the raid to increase their dps which also lowers my dps time wise. I will also cast damage enhancers when they refresh every few minutes. I do put forge of ro up since it does help dps when situation won't cause adds. I will throw up master 1 numbing cold so that the 120% movement slow may save my hide when I pull agro with a fusion if agro is not properly judge by me.
The latest example was in high hit point raid trash mobs.
This tier I could at least argue the pulling of agro which decreases my use of fusion in raids is due to current tank not upgrading some of his taunts like he should. He noted that during a recent raid[argh! so I will recalibrate how often I can mix fusion into the fight].
They usually do not have a warden in our group, when they do DPS does seem to go up. Thought though debuffs of mob effect anyone who hits raidwide.
I will readily admit I am not an expert on other classes effect in being in my group DPS wise in raid as well as I should.
I do get higher numbers with multiple mobs.
I do beat swashies "sometimes" but they beat me more often
I rarely remember beating the necro unless he is completely AFK(Btw he didn't seem concerned if they just nerfed the pet)
I can barely beat a warlock on single
I rarely beat a warlock on multiple(Not suprised...but with fusion I can make the exception with the right size and mob position...hehe)
Well we raid tonight as we do every night. Will see how it goes.
Short fights are worst for me, since I do try to get the damge shield/proc on the main tank and group damage buffs, so I have a bit of non dps downtime at fight start.

Also realize in the last tier I had master 1 ice comet, master 1 Every wizzy DPS out there, but only adept 3 on our debuff, but the necro always blew me away (as did the rangers back then)

This tier I have a bit or relic armor (we didn't "take advantage" of the raid zones, by rezoning and just killing trash..we actually were taking out the named so got less relics than some guilds who did other "techniques" but at least I am glad we were trying to beat the zone the way I assume the devs meant it to be beat)

Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200602:57 PM
Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200602:59 PM
Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200604:57 PM

okay so from what I gather your casting concurence + fiery grandur at the beginning of each fight?
frost shield does suck away some dps but 2.5s isn't that large.
It seems your limiting factor is your hate generation. As you cast numbing cold prior to using fusion so you wont die. If you have a troub/guarding/pally you will want to ask you be put in that group and hate trasfer or reduction placed on you.
Also a suggestion, if your going to use numbing cold prior to fusion use icebound gift prior to it so you'll get the proc dmg off numbing cold instead of nothing.
Last time I was in a troub/paly group i was parsing over 700dps on orange cons! and close to 900 for yellow or lower on single targets. the hate reduction + spell procs are rediculous.

The last time I felt I was truely tier 1 DPS was in groups in Jan 2005. Course we probably were more than tier 1 then.lol

I still like being a wizzy, just shouldn't be so hard to get into top 10 in a 24 man raid(6 healers...1 illusionist, 2 pallys, are almost always below me in dps, but being Tier 1 I should normally be out dps some of the offensive tanks ( I do more often than not), and stand neck and neck with the poison equipped scouts (Nope,,though I get lucky sometimes).

Instead I see in our raids

Tier 1
--------
Necro

Tier 2
--------
Some scout classes

Tier 3
--------
Wizzy
Warlock(Single mob)
sometimes the main tank zerker.lol. If I out dps the main tank by too much..seems i pull agro. I assume this is due to him not taunting enough in the past.


Tier 3.3
---------
Offensive tanks

Tier 4
--------
Illusionists
Pallys

Tier 5
--------
Healers

Tier 6
--------
AFK and slackers when they rarely happen

Troubs are the one thing lacking in our guild, and rarely were they put in the caster group.

Pallys will help on fusion (so fun when I am in a non -raid and have a pally tanking..though scouts can pull agro early since of our long cast times or if the CA off targets).

Agro can be an issue.

But even with less than optimum casting I would think I should be within 10% of scouts most of the time(exception when they do their 15 min CAs) which I am not. I do beat them..sometimes...Just doesn't feel like tier 1. I feel like tier 2 DPS wise who sometime beats tier 1s.

Don't get me wrong, I have hit 800 dps, but that is usually in a fight one of our scout classes doesn't hit 1K dps so was slacking and without the necro there at all.

Illusive Thoughts : "okay so from what I gather your casting concurence + fiery grandur at the beginning of each fight?"
Thought those names sounded old. No i cast tier 7 not tier 3 spells
Singularity master 1 Tier 6 is cast way before fight start(but is mostly meaningless not being in main tank group). I cast Phoenix blade adept 3on any melee dps in group way before fight. they don't cost me time
I cast ice shield on main tank at fight start and throughout fight, I also cast frigid gift and inferno surge at fight start and when their 2 min recast timers renew.
Fiery convulsion has not been in the mix

Edit : and tonight raid isn't a good one to get stats for. since earlier people ended up doing x2 work, and for the first time in a looooooong time we didn't have a goodx4 raid for hours
Anonymous wizard level 70
Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200604:54 PM
Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200604:58 PM
Message Edited by MonkeyBusiness on 03-14-200607:02 PM

The way I see it SOE, does round robin nerfs and buffs, my take on it, is if you want to reach 70, stay the course... deal with the nerfs and keep going... however, if you hate your character...then reroll, SOE, loves it when you start over...more money for them, in the long run...

yeah i couldn't remember the name of the permenant buffs so i just refer to the ones i remembered. It sounded like you were casting those in a fight the way you worded your post. good to know thats not the case.

not being able to chain spells severly hurts a wiz dps, and also using canni's / manastone when theyre up does too.
personally i think your problem with your dps is your raid make up and hate generation.

MonkeyBusiness:

While Frostshield is a great and handy spell, it's DPS isn't attributed to you. Not only that, often times on raids, the spell times out without all three procs occuring, lowering it's value. A good main tank needs to NOT get hit much on raids and Frostshield procs when they're hit.

Focus where you are virtually guaranteed damage and look for spells that you aren't using that might be useful. ForgeOfRo can be quite handy on a single target, for example. Slide in after the mob AEs and lay that down early in the fight. Then back off and nuke.

If you have a troubadour, convince your officers to make a nuke group that the troubadour can be in. I can't stress this enough. You can chain nuke and hardly ever draw aggro with a Troub. This maximizes the damage dealing of the entire group. The tank group should be using a Dirge anyways!

Lay down the big, long recast nukes whenever they're up. Use Sunstrike the most when they aren't. Overall it's the best DPS of the fast cast, short recast spells. Don't forget Protoflame! Don't get him in too early, he draws aggro and gets flattened. Same with ForgeOfRo, get it in early, but not tooooo early.

Yeah, we don't do Tier 1 DPS, but we do damage. And a decent amount if we work it hard.