[p]First off, before I get flamed and ranted about how there is so many other posts about this, just hear me out, I read dimglows post from cover to cover, I understand that. I guess I stand at a 5 legged crossroads and at this point I dont know where im headed, I know there is a world of possibilities out there and im begging to imbrace it. Last night I finally decided Stam has to be great. everyone says its a no brainer, go 4-4-8-8, 24 AA down, okay fine. [/p][p] where too next? I decided Intel looked good, accelleration to match up with my double attack. haste would be fun, and I get to use a sword, all the better. k so im using a buckler and a sword fast damage, great. but then I have someone tell me. haste isn't all that great. go axe and crit. STR is the way to go. so sure why not, STAM STR it is. once again, I was set on that, sounds good. [/p][p]now In my other ear I have someone saying BUCKLER IS HORRIBLE, go tower shield. wisdom intel it's the only way to go! [/p][p] wisdom intel... k.. why!? [/p][p] I need answers.. this is so confusing this is where im at people. I want to be able to tank most anything till I have to raid. if I have to switch it up and get a tower shield later down the road then cool. is buckler going to suffice. or am I going to be a **** tank if I go STAM? next.. if Stam is fine what comes next?[/p][p]I got a million ideas. I want to tank good enough to get me to 70 if I become raid tank so be it(not required) and then I want a great follow up to my stam line that will suffice tanking be the best possible group tanker/solo capable person I can be. axe sword whatever dont matter. even hammer if needed on wisdom. I just can't figure it out from here.[/p][p] [/p][p]HELP![/p]
Ok to start with let's take away raiding since you are not doing it right now, if I am incorrect about that then well take verythign with a grain of salt. I never used the buckler spec, but then again I'm a raid MT and never really wanted to. The buckler line for doing instances and group stuff works great. Sta 4-4-8-8 works great there so I would stick with that especially if you have a nice legendary buckler. The buckler line will increase your DPS while you MT for your group. Ok now the question is where to use your last 25 points in the warrior line. The wis line isn't what it once was because once you get your mit over 5000+ the diminishing return starts to kick in and you go up very slowly so I would avoid that line unless your mit is really low, which means youneed to get better gear. The Agi line isn't all that great either because + defense is a lot easier to cap then parry because there are more items with + to defense on them. STR 4-4-8-8 is going to incease your crit chances to 22% (i believe at work cannot look) and your hate gain by 10%. Also if you are using an axe as your 1 hander you have an increased chance with the 2nd ability inthis line to crit when you use the ability forgot the name think's it's executioner's wraith or something. This line is very solid especially if you have an trouble holding aggro. Int 4-4-8-8 is going to increase your haste by 18% and also your parry is going to increase as well. This means your avoidance is going to be raised and parry is ahrder to cap out than defense is. Also the 2nd ability in this line is nice and will help you gain even more haste if you are using a sword. Either 1 will work well it is jsut a preference if you don't have any problem holding aggro then I would suggest going down the Int line especially if you are using a sword. Here is my build and it is a bit weird but I am currently spec'd for DPS in a raid w/Pride's Edge (2 handed sword) STR 4-4-8, WIS 4-4-8-1, INT 4-4-8 (this build gives me 22% crit increase chance, 18% haste, 19% DPS and the increased haste with Accelerated Strike 2nd ability in int line and when I do tank I have Ascendant (1 handed axe) or Silver Sword of Rage and can use either the STR or Int ability there as well. This build isn't for everyone but it works very well for me.
awesome I appreciate the input, anyone else willing to put in a word. would love ot hear it.. this is great.
[p]ok now hang with me im gonna keep this simple..[/p][p]sta=very good dps especially since zerks are half tank half dps[/p][p]str=a compliment to the sta line especially if u have an axe to go with that buckler[/p][p]i dont know much about the other lines....dont go agi tho it can be bad in a non agro zone[/p][p]Edit: also one thing to know that if your tanking and things start to go bad...strap on the buckler and use the STA line buffs...saved my groups hides manyyyy times[/p][p]Another Edit: Weapon Aegis+Open Wounds+Rampage=killer dps when u need it most[/p]
How many non-agro zones are there with mobs that con? I can't think of any apart from Courts, and those mobs will eventually become agro anyways lol. Beserkers are AOE specialists just like Warlocks. The 3rd ability in the AGI line is a power free version of our Open Wounds (24% to trigger vs 100% for Open Wounds). It's also the same as the Swashbucklers Hurricane. Instead of running from this ability, it should be embraced. Having crits, aoe melee, and double attack is fantastic. To get even more benefit, find yourself a nice weapon with a 2.5 or slower delay, a good crit ratio (min/max damage) and you'll be having an absolute blast. I can't say this enough, but spending points in WIS and INT to get roughly 19% haste and dps mod, is a total waste if you ask me. These are so easily buffed nowadays that I feel it's smarter to spent points in abilities that either can only be buffed a very small amount of cannot be buffed at all. Crits, aoe melee and double attack. Club 448 I like to call it lol.
I stuck with 2h Crit/DPS/Haste until one day I was like lets try something new, buckler specc'ed myself... and damn it was sweet. I think people have rammed this into the ground through math calculations and lots of stuff I couldn't give a flying **** about, but the buckler is a very EASY way to do decent DPS, and still have a bit of avoidance. When I tank anything (I dont tank raids) I can do it with my buckler and in offensive till **** hits the fan and I swap in the tower shield+defensive stance. Sometimes temp buffs just cut it. But seriously, a needed is 4/4/8 str. I don't know many builds that don't bother with it cause the crit chance is just that much better. If you need aggro help slap 8 points for 4/4/8/8 str. Etc. Wis... Nice with 2h's and if you need more mit, take it. That last ability would be insane for soloing if you could get lots of +offensive skill gear and do everything defensively. But seriously, what Im trying to say here is do whatever fits you best. As in the stickied post there are some proven very very good build, but remember you are the artist.
atjtennis wrote: Dont know why you wouldnt want the buckler line as a MT, only works out to a small avoidance difference (less then 2.5% for me) and the dps increase you get makes agro cake. As for other viable options to go alone with sta, str or int works. Int is more dps related while str is more agro based, so if you plan to tank for raids, i would sugest str, if not then int is great as long as you have a nice sword. The wisdom line is total junk, if you have any decent mitigation the basicly what the wis line boils down to is 20 AA for 1% more mitigation and 12% dps mod. Agi line is ok but again the benefit doesnt outweight what you get from str or int lines (seeing as dragoon's cyclone is the only mentionable thing in there and its very situational for a dps increaser)
I've been working the AGI line. I think I am at 4-4-4-4 now. I decided to do something different. Switched it up, donned the buckler and lucked into a nice legendary loot 1h spear. (I think that was the final bit of motivation I needed) I don't have math or log parses to back any of this up, but I swear that mobs go down much quicker. My daughter says that she doesn't have any trouble keeping me alive. And I am having fun. Big ol' ogre with a stick and tiny shield. As for AOE procs, that is a toggleable thing. In a dense area filled with non-aggro I turn it off, if it's just them and me it's time to party.
Im not saying that the agi line(dragopn's cyclone) doesnt add alot of DPS, im saying the DPS you get is situational. How much does your AE auto attack help you vs single mobs, or named(w/o adds), etc. I can tell you that the str OR int line will always increase your DPS no matter what you fight, the agi line is a maybe.
No doubt, Dragoon's Cyclone will not help you against a single mob. But how many times do you just fight one mob? Raid zones and instances these days require killing tons of adds, minions and other lackys. In the long run Dragoon's Cyclone still surpases the haste from INT. If we did not have diminishing returns, I'd go for all the haste and dps mod I could get my hands on. Solo, I can hit over 100 dps mod and 50/70 haste (can't rem this figure as not in game). Add in Open Wounds and my self haste is huge. Spending points in INT to get another 20-30 haste is a waste if you ask me. For sure you're own haste numbers might be different and thus spending points in INT does help you. However once you get into a group and get a few buffs on, you realize how little if anything you get out of spending points in WIS & INT. I like to look at the things that are harder to buff, both self and in groups. AOE melee attack can't be buffed by anyone. It's power free and when you get down to it, you will realize you fight alot more multi mob encounters than you realize. Everyone pretty much recommends spending the 15 points in the Cyclone EOF line to upgrade our PB/AOE spells. Clearly we do AOE and we do it well. If you never ever fight anything other than a single mob, then seriously consider going 448 in AGI. You won't regret it, and you'll even get a 4th AOE spell to boot. Though it does require a spear to use, you can simply hotkey it for simply usage. Beserkers are melee AOE psychopaths. With 2 PBAOE spells, 1 AOE spell, 1 additional AOE spell (if you go AGI line), Open Wounds, Destruction, Offensive Stance, you'll notice we excel in this area. Dragoon Cyclone only adds to this honey pot of AOE goodies we can dish out.
well the majority of named raid mobs are solo, who cares about doing uber dps to trash, its not life threatning if you kill it xx amount faster.
I won't disagree with you on this, but there are many fights that require mad aoe dps to burn the scripted adds that spawn. I'll take 24% aoe melee over 20-30 or is it 40 haste anyday. I've hit 250 many times on buffed dps mod. Clearly I'm way over the cap, and way past the point of diminishing returns. Had I spent points in WIS for dps mod, I can honestly say matter of factly that in my own personal case, it would be a waste of points. That's my point concerning haste. Without spending a point in INT, I can still reach the cap.
I'm just curious if you have tanked any raid name with the 448 STA/STR/AGI and kept the buckler equipped or switched to a kite or tower for those fights. I'm usually OT and I find I can even get away with tanking in my offensive stance, so I wonder just how valuable the points I sunk into 10% extra hate or 4.5% avoidance really are. Actually, I'd be interested in anyone's opinion on the 4.5% avoidance in the buckler line and if they tank fine without it. Also, for those that argue about the usefulness of the additional AoE damage, I'd say the majority of my raid time is fighting trash. The faster you can clear that, the faster you can move onto bigger things. As for single target fights, the 10% hate and 4.5% avoidance I have now also contribute nothing to damage. At least with the AGI line I'd pick up an additional PBAoE that would do extra damage to a single target. Though, my biggest gripe with this line is that it doesn't stack with Open Wounds.
My personal feeling is Dragoons Cyclone does stack with OW. DC seems to be an additional chance to aoe hit surrounding mobs. So if I had just hit one mob, or had OW up and hit 4 surrounding mobs, DC can still kick in for an additional aoe hit on either the same 4 mobs, or any 4 of the surrounding mobs. Since neither OW and DC are considered procs, they will not show up in any parser, so it's a hard one to nail down as to whether it works this way or not. If DC does trigger off of an OW hit, then it most likely only triggers off the mob you have targeted, and not a chance to trigger off of each of the 4 hits. This is how weapon procs work I think too right. Now to answer your question on tanking. Yes I have tanked raid mobs in this build like Tarinax, Vyemm, 3 Princes etc. I know it's not optimal, but it's certainly possible to achieve. I use a tower/kite on the pulls, am in Defensive and don't switch to my buckler until the mob has been debuffed. I haven't had any problems with hate accept the times I've had no buffs to up my crushing/slashing/piercing skills. Those times have been rough, but I know having 10% more hate wouldn't have helped things either. I was simply missing the mob way too many times, wasn't doing much dps and thus my hate was horrid. But generally there has always been someone to buff my skill ups when I've been MT. The only real time I had serious problems with hate was when I split tanked Amorphous Drake and was using a slasher against a slashing immune mob. What a noob right lol. If you have a coercer, dirge and assasin uux, then you could easily not spend points on upping your hate %. The extra 4.5% block & riposte is certainly nice, but if you find yourself in positions where you don't tank much if anything outside of instances, then apart from Nizarra, I've tanked every instance with a buckler in offensive stance. I spent my 50th point in the 4th ability of STA. So for that last point, I got +1.0% block & frontal riposte. Since I don't tank much apart from instances, I spec'd my toon to be of more use for the majority of the situations I find myself in. And that is as an OT, for my STR and Beserk group buffs, and my aoe melee dps. I don't MT much. That's not my role, but when asked to I have pulled it off without any hiccups.
Yes but the point of gearing up is not to clear trash, you need to make yourself better you kill named. As fas as i can recall no one has claimed WW first on clearing random trash in XX zone. Trash dies slow or fast, whatever, but what you need max dps on is named, and for the most part they are solo. It looks nice for zone wide parse but thats really it. To digital, if your haste and DSP are so high dont you think crits would yield more dps anyways, im not sure how fast you guys are pulling and what you are cleaing, but most of the time i can use openwounds every fight with its 2.5 min recast(aa modified). Yes it might not be for the whole fight but it lasts a good majority of the time on trash, on top of all that crits is good vs solo encounter or group and the next skill down(hate) is really useful if you are in a tank role. I realise that your spec does have crits but the OP asked where he sould spend his remaining 25 points, which pretty much just sounds like one line more to me, which is why i sugest str or int. Going down the agi line will basicly leave you with 9 rogue points that wont be put to much use. Basicly, when i gear up, i think, hey maybe (insert some random named) will be easier now. Not man im gonna own some trash, woo hoo! But i guess this is where we differ because i am MT role and you are more DPS role. Im just curious as to someone spec'd for DPS what is your AVERAGE parse like on single target and AOE. Also have you ever went 448 str sta int and done a zone parse for the same zone(assuming you have a good sword)
There are so many named raid mobs that have adds (scripted and from the get go), that by stating the build I was referring to is only relevant to raid trash is off target. I've always had crits so I'm not sure what you are referring to here. I have 448 in STR, 448 in AGI and 4481 in STA. I totally agree the hate in the STR line is a good one for an MT, but I fill that role so rarely it's waste for the majority of the time I spend playing, and that's OT and dps on raids. I don't have any parse numbers on my own computer, but when I next raid I will post some numbers if you like. I've not used a build like you describe (STR 448, STA 448, INT 448). I've never managed to get a good sword I was happy with. My play style works so much better with longer delay weapons. There are are only two 1H swords with 2.5 or slower delays that I am aware of. What is the exact amout of haste INT gives you at 448? I know INT 41 is a good investment for points, but since I've never had a good sword, I've never been tempted to try it. The only point that's really in contention here is AGI vs WIS/INT. I don't think anyone disagrees with going STR & STA 448. If you have a nice slow delay crit ratio weapon, STR is even more appealing. My point is without spending any points in INT, I can still achieve virtually the same amount of haste as someone who spent 16 points. Unless you solo in either PVP or PVE, or have no haste gear to speak of, the return for the amount of points spent is not going to be of much benefit. The answer given first to most everyone who asks what line they should spend points on in their EOF AA line, is of course Cyclone. Clearly people are aoe'ing mobs all over the place.
LOL. That's exaggerating what was stated by quite a bit. I don't think anyone's goals are to target the trash, except maybe those going for relic. You had mentioned the AoE ability is situational. Well, when a large percentage of the raiding is on trash encounters which contain more than one mob, then I'd say it's not a bad idea to have some kinda benefit for those situations. Being able to have your autoattack (which can hit very hard) strike multiple mobs is a definate help with aggro. If you can hit for over 1K (and most slow delay 1H's can with raid buffs) per attack, it's like having a free encounter taunt everytime it triggers. The fact that it stacks with the double attack is a bit insane. Even more so if it stacks with Open Wounds. That's a potential to triple attack your off target if true. It's not about you owning some trash, but letting the warlocks and other AoE dps classes handle it more effectively. My personal experience with the +hate from the STR line is that I can't notice a difference. Everything seems to be the same as it was when I didn't have it. I hold aggro the same, I peel aggro the same, etc. I honestly can't notice it. I actually wonder if it's working. I respec'd hoping it would help on raids when accuracy is lower, etc. I figured the extra hate might make up for it, and give a boost to taunts, etc. I just don't see it. Speaking for myself, we're pulling fast. More or less chain pulling. The faster we can clear a zone, the more zones we're able to do per night. That also means we can do the same zones again quicker (as soon as the timer is up). That leads to more rewards. I'm sure you get the idea.
Your DC shouldnt proc off double attack. They changed double attack a long time ago so that the second attack from double attack counts as a proc. The max times you will ever hit the mob you have targeted from a single auto attack with DC on is 2 and AE mobs will be 1. As fas as i can tell DC and open wounds dont stack, but i havent done extensive testing on it and its really hard to check in parsers. As far as AE classes are concerned using destruction and gibe is generally enuf agro for mobs to stay off them. I guess im curious as to what you are pulling that takes less then 2 minutes to kill, are we talking labs here or something. Even pushing 25k raid dps it still takes us about 2 minutes to clear a trash group in EH. I also seem to doubt your extra 200 dps is going to make a raid go ZOMGWTFBBQ faster. That is of course assuming you are doing 900 DPS auto attack w/o DC, scale that down if you are doing less. Look out the zerker went from 900 to 1100 DPS auto attack, hold the phone, someone bring in the nerf bat!
