Odys@Storms wrote: My biggest beef with this thread is all the examples of where wardens are lacking previously haven't held weight. What you have here is a better idea of what needs to be fixed. =)
Evilnikki@Guk wrote: Then please, by all means help us out with arguments that will hold more weight. The idea was to help identify weaknesses so that when the new expansion comes, druids can become more desirable for raid spots instead of just in one or two spots. (Whereas Clerics and Shamans usually dominate raid spots)
Sinaya@Oasis wrote: Did you or did you not read the entirety of my post... I think I went thru a bunch of the points that we need looked at. Point by point in Odys post. What exactly are you looking for? Are you asking to run 3-4 drd's in every raid? Cuz if you are there is no need for 12 healers in a raid tbh. Personally I'm content seeing 2 drds in a raid consistantly. Do you remember TSO? I sure do. I remember being told straight to my face that wardens are useless and that I will sit on raids simply cuz I wasn't a shammy. I remember not getting raid spots EVER because wardens REALLY WERE in a bad spot. Its not so anymore. We actually can hold down a raid spot. Sure we have room for improvement still.. but the way your making it sound is as if nothing has changed and that is completely incorrect.
I'm not trying to make it sound as if nothing has changed, and really don't understand why you're taking such an antagonistic tone. What I want is more even distribution. Instead of needing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1 for Shamans, Clerics and Druids, maybe something more like 3-3-3, or 4-3-3, or however many healers are needed for whichever mob you're fighting. (We can run 4-rune with 6 healers, but none of them are druids) If Druids are the more hybrid-ish of healer classes, then I'd like to see more utility added. We no longer have anything comparable to the t-3 Ward of Elements dps armor set of TSO, so there's no priest-oriented haste or dps mod gear for us to equip unless we want to don some brawler armor or scout / fighter jewelry. I realize that maybe that particular armor set was more geared towards running heroic or x2 content, but the mechanics provided for dps-supported heals doesn't seem to really contribute that much to raid-wide parses. Savage Healing, Tranquil Backlash, Natural Boon and Stormcaller's Renewal don't contribute very much to the heal parse, (just a hair over Overloaded Heal) especially on wing three encounters like Mosassus and Theerax the Enforcer where the healers really need to hang back anyway. Even when we are able to get in there for some melee damage, the numbers still favor Ancient Invigoration, Runic Deflection and so on as long as the druid is also spamming group beneficials while dealing damage in order to proc Infusion, even if the healing isn't needed. Yes, things have gotten better since the Shadow Odyssey, but as you continue to say, Lilesthobo, things could still be improved upon. My hope is that we can help the developers identify what said things are, and provide some feedback as to what we'd like to see changed at the same time. I'm sorry if my arguments didn't hold weight for you, but the goal was to get the discussion started, make some comparisons between what we have and what other healers have, and see where to go from there. If my tone is whiny please know that wasn't my intention. Highlighting everything that HAS improved seemed counterproductive, unless the intent behind doing so was to celebrate the changes that have already happened and sort of say, "Please, let's have more of this!" But my impression is that the majority of the community already considers Wardens overpowered based on their performance in heroic, solo, Battlegrounds and easy-mode raid content. And yes, I realize that said content accounts for a large part of the game, but a small change like making Cyclone raid-friend instead of group friend would not alter the solo or group play experience at all while still providing a huge benefit for a raiding force. You've repeatedly complained about the dumbfires, so maybe making a suggestion as to how they could be improved, rather than waiting for someone else to make a suggestion you do or don't like and then providing harsh feedback on it would be productive. It seems like your experience with end-game raiding is a bit different from mine, but your experience isn't going to be the same as everyone's.
Sinaya@Oasis wrote: You are comparing Cyclone to Divine Guidance. This is a poor comparison. Divine Guidance is comparable to Tunare's Grace and Spiritual Leadership, the druid and shamen SF abilities. All 3 are excellent abilities. Cyclone could be better compared to the Templar spell True Faith which provides a damage reduction and threat proc or the defiler spell Malicious Spirits which reduces autoattack damage and potency as well as removes AOE autoattack. I think that with SF healer classes are more balanced than they've ever been. Each class has a few areas where things could be improved. For warden fixes, I'd like to see the druid temp pets (at least the tree) have aoe immunity. At least the fairy heals when it dies. Instinct as a group wide buff via a red adorn or AA's wouldn't be unreasonable. The same goes for Aspect of the Forest.
Ok so you want some suggestions... Dumfire pets - In the current form our tree falls over to a stiff breeze. This basically makes it not worth wasting our mana on. An easy fix to this would be make the tree ae immune. Simple. Where as that wouldn't work with our fairy due to a large part of its healing comes from its death. So I would suggest giving it alot more hps so it doesn't get cast and die in a second as well. Also make our tree even smaller, like the size of the "blessed sapling" you could get from the druid ring events. Wolf pack is useless to cast as well. It does so little damage and dies to a stiff breeze as well. Again making them ae immune and increase there dps a little would be an easy solution. Or change the spell to a dot that can be mod'd by potency, crit, crit bonus would be even better! Melee issues - At the moment our aa combat arts do not scale properly. Fix the reuse on them so they can be reused at the same rate as our spells, as they stand they have three times the reuse rate. Most of them are on the same damage as our t7 spell versions. The only exception to this is Icestrike which has roughly the same damage as Icefall. At the moment I refuse to spend the 20 aa's in that line because I can deal just as much damage with my spells and stay ranged. On this note, why can't they just add wisdom to the brawler dps set of t3 gear so that we dont have to take a huge cut to our wis (which does mod our dps). Cyclone - Make this spell raid friend instead of group friend. Or reduce the reuse on it. As it stands 10 min base reuse, group friend makes this spell highly under appreciated. Infuriating Thorns out weighs it by far being raid friend with a 1.5min reuse. Instinct - Make instinct groupwide not group friend would be really nice. Its an amazing buff in its own right, but it is very restricted. I never get to cast this buff on myself due to the fact that it does more for the scouts in my group, and even on that point, if you have 2 high dpsing scouts in your group how do you decide which deserves it more. Honestly making it groupwide and cost a concentration slot would be amazing. Would also put our buffs more in line with mystics and inq's who buff dps. For example Act of War is an inquisitor groupwide buff that procs fairly large divine damage on every spell or combat art about 1.3xs a min and with aa or red slot adorn can be bumped up to 2xs a min. Sandstorm - Honestly I'm not complestely sure how to fix this buff. But in its current state its pretty useless. Could change the threat component to be when you attack the mob as well as when you get attacked. Maybe add a small passive damage proc to it as well, sort of on par with Undeniable Malice. Skin Like Wood - There is no reason the ward should not be mod'd by crit, potency, crit bonus, etc. 980 ward doesn't even cover one hit. Maybe even increase the base, this isn't DoF and 980 ward is a joke to be honest. Gear procs have more then a 980 ward on them. Aura of Leadership a CRUSADER aa can ward for more then that! And its groupwide! Agility Line - Animal charm/mez... nough said lol. Ok seriously these 2 aa's are a complete and utter waste. They need to be changed. Maybe make them a nuke or something along the lines of turn strike (like in the bard str line) since both endlines are our ae blockers. Maybe an ae avoid proc off our heals as one of the replacements, similar to the stun immune proc on our sta line. But seriously these 2 aa's have to go. Spirit of the Bat - This spell is very weak in its current state. Sure it gives agil, in-combat power regen, and power max, which are good for a scout but all 3 are weak at best. Maybe increase the values across the board, remove the in-combat power regen, and add flurry or accuracy or some viable stat to it. Or instead of the in-combat power regen, you could replace that with a damage + power drain proc. But in its current state its very weak. I'm sure there are other valid points that I am missing but here are a few that definately need to be looked at. Sorry if you thought I was being antagonistic Sin but to complain bout Tortoise Shell, Tunare's Grace, etc weren't the best spells you could ask for improvements.
I very much agree on the CA issue, I m still meleing (old habit) to get the 25% dps from my auto-attack but i may well switch and become a "weak" fury. I m at 80% casting speed, and often at 100%+ when buffed. If i had my nuke in master i would certainly respe with the inteligence line. What is crazy is that risky dps (melee, positionning ) is lower than easy mode dps. Battlepriest really got negelcted this expansion. Like the above poster i dislike to waste AAs into animal charm and animal mezz. I agree on the rest, i did comparable suggestions. Last remember that Aeralik promised that out HOT would in a way refill shammie wards, this would not affect our ability as single healer (we are very good solo healers) but il would increase the value of a druid in a raid.
Odys@Storms wrote: A. Aeralik was fired. B. The heal change was scrapped prior to SF release, we aren't getting our hots changed.
Something I was thinking about that in my opinion wouldn't be too overpowered would be for Wardens to get a buff similar to the Paladin's Crusade. (Raid-wide buff to Wisdom and Healing Potency) This would be in line with other class buffs since Paladins, like Wardens, are also a defensive-based Hybrid class. This could even be a temporary effect. Maybe something along the lines of making our Healing Grove be protected from AoEs, and in addition to providing it's normal small-radius heals, it could also boost the healing potency of the raid by a small amount. (Potency please, not crit bonus... so that fighter heals could benefit too). In my opinion, this wouldn't be a huge, game-breaking change, but would still give Wardens at least one extra tool to utilize during raids. As it stands now they have no raid-wide spells of buffs that I can think of other than being able to cast Infuriating Thorns (12-second, three-hit stoneskin Myth clickie) or Thornskin (single-target piercing damage shield) cross-group to other raid members. The buff wouldn't even necessarily have to apply to the Warden, but would be most useful in grouping with other healers like Shamans and Clerics since it would boost their wards and reactives by a %.
Also, for the record, Tortoise Shell (and simlar aoe-blockers like Blade Dance and Holy Shield) doesn't work on about 1/3rd of the last few third-wing Underfoot Depths AoEs. Yael, Theerax, and I believe Saalax and Mosaasus all have traumas that pretty much ignore aoe blockers all together. (Not 100% sure on Saal and Mos, but this is absolutely the case for Yael.)
Evilnikki@Guk wrote: This is the problems with wardens... When a raid needs heals, they put in a templar. When a raid wants dps they put in an inquisitor. Optimized raid setups are about min/max. Run the warden in the grp to make the warden happy but then the rest of the grp is unhappy because they'd rather have an inquistor. The problem isn't what the warden class can do.. The problem is what they can't do which is to be desired by their grp. Right now mainly, the only time a warden is desired is as a 3rd healer with the main tank for additional heals and cures and usually that just lasts until a defiler/templar is geared enough to do it on their own. Can a warden get placed in another grp and perform - sure, BUT would the grp prefer a different healer ... yeah, thats the problem at the end game. Assassins are the top parsing scout class in the game. Wardens are practically non-existent in their grp setups. The assassin parse thread is DOMINATED by shaman/cleric with mystic/inq prefered. So until this changes then from an optimum raid setup and when the extra heals are not needed - the wardens can bask in all their glory... from the bench. Furies at least received some love where they are welcomed in the mage grp and can take advantage and provide buffs in that grp. But what can be done for wardens to make them part of an "optimized" raid setup without completely replacing inquistors or templars. Based on the current direction of encounter design I don't see shamans having an issue for a raid spot ever. Then what can SoE do for the other classes stuck in this position (summoners, brawlers, ranger) without making another class obsolete.
Yeah, I agree Arant.. We're very good solo healers, no doubt about it - but if a guild has a plentiful amount of good inquisitors, groups would rather choose the inquisitor over the warden, just for the buffage. The Inquisitor will heal just as well and also comes with the extra DPS buffage. Sure, Instinct can be one of the top parsing abilities of a scout, but this is limited to one person. We can also buff extra agility, but most scouts are 1800+, so its effects are minuscule. If two healers are needed for a hard mode encounter.. Shaman + Inquisitor (MT: Shaman + Templar). If only one easy change could be made to my class.. Making Instinct somehow groupwide would be a really nice addition. The proc is amazing and also comes with 95 slashing/crushing/piercing/ranged, 10% accuracy, 7% MA (useful next expansion).. Which is huge for any melee class. Groupwide Instinct could definitely help us be just as viable as Inquizzies
While I haven't played a 90 warden long enough to theorycraft with you guys I am finding that a Warden is not all its cracked up to be at lvl 90. Sure we have some good group healing and I can somewhat hold my own but I find the Warden to be pretty undesirable for almost any lvl 90 content, whether its raiding or grouping. I spend most of my day sitting around LFG and frankly I rarely find those groups. Even guild groups are pretty much ignoring the Warden's and Fury's as we sit and ask for groups in guild chat. I think it just comes down to the fact that most groups would rather take someone else, and again its all about desirability. If they want a healer they are taking Templars, Inq's, or Defilers. If they want a dps, well they take a dps. As it is the only time I get invites to groups is when they need a "Backup" healer (and those are usually pretty crappy groups) or if the group gets to the last boss and couldn't kill him with their 1 healer then i get invites for "last boss only!" Like thats some sort of prize. It just seems like the druid's in general are not wanted for most any kind of group content. I dont think its necessarily cause were bad at healing or dpsing, its just that other classes do it better and why take the mediocre class when you can have the better.
Uguv@Mistmoore wrote: I wish you would explain that to the groups out there. As it is I sit in Warden chat on my server and we just talk about how we never, ever get in groups. Ive gotten in 1 group in the last week while sitting lfg for hours on end shouting to both guild and to pugs, nothing. I dunno perhaps I am not one of the lucky ones to have their own little group clique like some Warden's are, but in as far as just finding random groups Wardens seem anything but desirable. I actually had a guy tell me he didnt want to take a Warden cause he wanted a "Main Healer." I know Warden's can do it, but the general population doesn't seem to think so - perhaps its just my server, who knows.
Trevalon wrote: If I'm in the mood to do a PUG and I see someone spamming for a healer I usually just send a tell saying, "I can come if you're still looking for a healer." I don't ask what kind of healer they are looking for and I don't advertise what kind of healer I am. Granted I play a templar, but I have /anon on so people can't tell what class I am. As for those people who don't think a druid can do fine in group content... They are either a) ignorant, b) unintelligent, or c) both. Those same people probably don't think brawlers can tank for a group either. Back in TSO I'd take a warden over any other healer for PoF. In SF (aside from the new hard mode instance) there really aren't many challenging zones so any healer should do fine.
First off. Fix CA's so they are like they were before this expansion. They need to do more damage then spells to make up for their longer re-use. IMO Wardens still suffer from the long time issue of "where do you put them". Yes, things are better than TSO, but they are still a second or third choice for any spot you would put them. What I think could help is as follows: Make Instinct a maintained buff that can be cast on as many people as you have concentration for, and make it raid friend. To free up concentration spots make aspect of the forest 1 target no concentration, again raid friend. Yeah this is a nerf, but I don't see how you can make instinct a maintained buff otherwise. Make sandstorm raid wide. I agree cyclone just seems to situation specific and ends up not being nearly as good as it looks on paper, but raid wide seems a bit much, so make it group wide. All this should mean we can cast instinct on two people, and more if we drop some other buffs. This could either be MT/OT or 2-3 scouts and have the MT/OT get the +hate proc from sandstorm. Ideally, this would encourage raid leaders to bring a Warden for the hate gain even if they are not the ideal class for they group they are in, but 2-3 instinct + t-shell make us a contender for a spot in the scout group as well. I'd rather see a global fix for dumb fire pets, and don't expect much of a change but we do have some weaknesses in handling stifle, stuns etc and pets could help out here. Make them AE immune, or possibly give Conj/Necro an ability to make dumbfires AE immune raid wide. Give the tree an additional raidwide Wis buff Give the fairy a cure. Not sure if this would be better then the current heal when it dies because we can't control where that cure will go but it's worth a try.
Uguv@Mistmoore wrote: Wardens are probably the best solo healer in the heroic game. Keeping a group alive with a mystic is way harder (with similar gear). Most people will prefer the warden over the mystic if i ask who they want. I never got negative answer when i applied as a healer in a group (except when thay already got a reply). Templar and mystic miss cure and anti aoe, defiler miss quick group heals and inquisitor too. In the heroic game big wards or templar buff are not a necesity. Also versus heroic content the fact that the warden has infinite mana, and can feed one member is a huge asset. (mystic are not bad either).
Sinaya@Oasis wrote: The Devs have lost any vision, there are many ways to make an encounter difficult without breaking the gane rules.
In the end I will say this. With the changes with SF, some of which were backhanded nerfs and some were buffs, in the big picture wardens sit almost at the same place as before except that we are no longer prefered over furys which are now definitely definitely better for mage groups and have the raid cure also. We are still the prefered 3rd healer for a MT group IF required and we can fill another class healers spot if they dont show up for raid, lol. With that said, I have never really had a problem healing an instance group ever as a warden unless the tank was poorly geared for the zone. But I played my warden since dec 2004 so it might just be experience, lol. But I do acknowledge that for survivability buffs for the tank and group, shaman and clerics are better for big hit/big aoe damaging zone then wardens and fury's. Even with our aoe blocker. Solo, well geared I do fine and I have picked the gear that is available to me that helps me do that the best in my opinion. Changes that I would like to see, even though in the big picture, I dont see them really making warden more desirable in raids over clerics and shamam, are suggested here. Group wide instinct. Let it be a raid adornment. The concentration slot could be good too IF for raid friend and just not group friend. Bring back the knockdown part of sandstorm and change it back to affect more then just shield avoidance. Chanters and scouts dont use shield. Make it 3 minute duration but give it a bigger power over time use. Never liked the old root part of it. The tanks in a group usually seem to move in the fight to where we are just out of melee range, lol. Make the cyclone 10 second immunity usable for any raid/group friend. AA is a different discussion and there will always be "useless" ones to some people. Furys mostly find the str line worthless for example. Ones I would like to see though. Change the charm animal aa to be more like a coercers charmed pet in that it wont die in 3 hits from a normal mob. Change the animal mezz to a animal posses essense type spell. It will not be overpowered since their are not very many animal mobs in a raid zone. As others have said for melee dpsing. It should do a lot more damage then nuking for the aa cost, the melee range risk, and the longer recast times with our gear haveing casting and no melee choice enhancements. Now even with my suggested changes, I don't see any kind of big rush to replace shaman and clerics with wardens but it might make wardens more palatable to raid leaders, lol.
