azraelteir wrote: Its great you found a good place to be, but for many this is not the case. While I don't like sounding like a broken record, the people who are not as fortunate need some love too. Now while you may be able to pull top 4 or whatever on the parse I would probably ponder that if you were in one of the top guilds on your server you wouldn't be in the top 10. Now that's not to knock your skill or your knowledge of the class but it does say something with the company you keep. Having been in a top end guild and now with a more casual type of raider I can see definite differences in play. Being 200 below a myth assassin says that assassin either doesn't have the gear or doesn't play very well, assassins are regularly doing anywhere from 13-22k ZW, I seriously doubt necros can compete with that. Its not just that our dps has not scaled correctly since the end of EoF, its that everytime we try to bring issues to bear there is ALWAYS somebody out there saying, dude suck it up your class is just fine. I can safely say that I believe the itemization of RoK destroyed the summoner class. From every class being able to take part in everything we brought to a raid force, manastones, feign death, coth, etc. Its just disheartening to see they have not only not replaced our class with anything useful but seem ignorant or even happy to not pay us any attention. Even A 'sorry guys we know we have some things to work thru be patient with us' would be enough to keep most of us happy. Even sitting down with a few that play the game to pick our brains on what we think would make the game enjoyable again would be nice. Now some will point out that they have hard times getting in groups and raids. I can safely say that I'm a lucky one in both regards because I was easily invited in the raid guild I have now due to my past experience and gear. It is also easier to get groups based on prior reputation or even current based on group performance. But there is a vast majority that don't and are frankly quitting the game due to this. Without being passionate for this game I would have just screw it long ago and given up on it. However playing many of the MMOs out there, this game, despite its drawbacks, provides THE most compeling gameplay available. Its not the mindlessness that is WoW, its not the PVP centered Warhammer, and its not the suck which is Age of Conan, it is a shame they did not promote it enough to actually establish a decent playerbase. Back to your post a bit, the priest mobs in UH are not strictly priests, though they do look like them. They are more like a hybrid between the fighters and mages, they do cast spells but they also run in to melee. Would be nice to give them some more damage spells maybe a heal or two. The class needs a lot more than a little TLC, it needs a lot. Some suggestions have been put forth but until we get somebody to acknowledge things the class will continue to dwindle in numbers until there really is no point in fixing it anyways.
Sabutai wrote: Where are these Assassin doing 13k zonewides (let alone 20k zonewides) without avatar gear, perfect buffs, and a raid built to support only melee DPS? And how are they managing to do this in zones where the majority of the fights require jousting, clicking or running through scripts? I can see this in a group instance but on a raid? Come now. Unless every mob dies in 10 to 20 seconds and the Assassin has all their cooldowns up between mobs AND all the melee support cooldowns are back up between every mob that's just not going to happen even in the best gear the game has to offer. And let's not get into Dispatched having to be up on the pull in order for an Assassin to even get up to peak DPS... If you run 4 dirge 3 brigand and give the assassin a troubador and a dirge and the right healers and the best gear in the game and perfect buff timing.... I think yer still gonna have a hard time seeing a zone wide over 13 to 15k... And that's only if the Assassin never has to joust or kill an add or flip a switch or pick up a doll or reset a curse or get stunned/stifled or get knocked back, or any of the other dozens of things that interupt DPS during highly scripted raid encounters... And if the Mythical Assassin is doing 10.5k and I'm doing 10k without Lifeburn.... Where's this massive gap in DPS? Oh that's right it's only there when everyone on the raid is in Avatar gear and the Necro has no class specific options that work so in turn don't scale up that extra 20%... Scio you ever stop to look at where the actual disperity is? Necro fall short at the low end at at the absolute highest level of progression ONLY. And that happens for the same reason. Pet's don't scale with gear. And if you aren't stupid about putting the raid together you make sure the Necro get's in with the Warlock, Wizzy, and Troubador so the Necro can actually DPS. Not stuff the Necro in the scout group with a dirge and say "have at it pal". I can hit 10k without lifeburn on TSO raids with just an Illy, a Wizzy, and a Trouby for procs. Add a Warlock there's another 1k, change the healer from fury to cleric there's another 1k... Our high end isn't really an issue until we put on the broken gear and expect DPS from it... The majority of our DPS comes from other class's procs anyway. The DPS you and many others complain about means nothing. 10 to 15 second trash fights distort EVERYONE's zonewides. So using them to base your DPS perspective is kinda stupid. The Problem Necro has with DPS is Buff Dependance do to the fact that our Pets don't scale. That's it. Otherwise our DPS is fine. The other issue is a lack of utility. We bring nothing to the raid that other classes can't reproduce more effectively. Lets not exagerate the issues anymore. That isn't not helping either. We need Utility (that is unique to summoner) We need Pets that scale with our gear (dumbfires included) We need Fyre to fix the damn summoner gear and add some real summoner gear to top teir progression... That's it.
Xil wrote: sorry you don't need to specifically setup a raid for melee dps to have an assassin destroy the parse. When I left my avatar killing guild in august the assassin was regularly doing ZWs in the 10-11k range, I have seen parses pushing that even higher. When raid guilds are pushing the 150-175k dps mark yes the stuff is dying in 10-15 seconds, and no you don't need to wait for timers to be up, that is the single biggest issue people have had with assassin dps, its supposed to be intermittant burst, but they can sustain those numbers fight after fight. Get a decent assassin or ask one, they are doing what I just said they do. Stop advocating our dps is fine, your dribble is not helping the class. There is much more than just one issue and its people like you advocating as such that is preventing any real discussion on it. and, that's it.
Xil wrote: Maybe you check some parse threads, for instance http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/...-thread-24.html You will not find a lot of parses under 10k. Beside that wizzards can outdamage assassins (at least the wizzard in my guild does).
Clywd wrote: Yeah the best geared Assassin in the game push 15k zonewides on merged palace trash parses where the mobs die in 15 seconds. I believe that pretty well proves the point for me =P And Scio read the post all the way before you start attacking it that will help too. In case this didn't dawn on you yet if our Pet's Scale'd properly our top end would come up some. And our bottom end would come up ALOT. Read completely, consider, then post. It's easy.
Xil wrote: oh we read pretty well I think its just that you don't really understand the game, and you're the biggest hypocrit on these boards. First you come off oh, we're fine, then the next post its oh we gotta fix this gotta fix that. 10-15 sec parses are not distorted if they're NORMAL!! You distort and ignore the things that don't ever ever prove your points. Avatar geared raid guilds are doing 10-15 sec trash fights all the time. They aren't going to bring a necro or conjy along just for named fights, if they can't compete in the 'meat' of the zone why bring them at all? Pet scaling is not the only issue with the class, you don't ever read anything that the other 99% of the class agrees is the problem, you create more problems by advocating the opposite. Trust me I've been doing this a heck of lot longer than you, I have seen every aspect of this game and feel I can comment on all of it because of that. Pet scaling isn't what will fix the class, if anything pet AI needs looking at more than spell scaling. There are more broken mechanics with pet spells than scaling. Shared stats would solve a lot of the problems, but according to you that's not a priority or should be. I can hit 10k on fights too, but you don't really raid with high end assassins or wizards or you'd be so far behind the curve its not even funny. Completely stacked groups don't prove anything other than our complete dependacy on other classes, a LOT of other classes. If a group was made up of a wiz, warlock, necro, fury, troub, illy...where do you think the best buffs would go? TC would go on the wizard, upbeat would go on the warlock and the necro would be left in the dust by both of those classes on the parse, why? Because there is no real reason to actually even bring that necro on the raid. In fact its probably a better idea to bring a conjy at least they're good on AE fights. There is no low end fall off, the problem is because pets don't crit enough, if the pets crit'd as much as other spellcasters the min damage range would go way up just based on how crits work. Also with the new types of stats being introduced in this expansion, summoners will fall even farther behind than they were at the end of RoK, crit bonus doesn't exist on any of the pet buffs, and from what I've seen there isn't much in the crit bonus department AND pet bonus gear at all. Itemization is NOT the way to fix the biggest issue. So until you really understand the game mechanics, and it obvious you don't really have any clue, stop posting like you do.
Xil your informational posts are sometimes helpful, thank you for that. But please stop posting saying Necro's are fine, and only need a tiny tweak. YOU can top parses, congratulations. I can too, when the stars allign, but not ZW. And raids often don't put Necro's in the mage dps group, if they take them at all, because it's easier to make other classes to just as much dps. Plus just the stygma that comes along with being a Necro (because of the classes problems!). It shouldn't be that difficult, but it is. With 1 particular group set up Necro's are good, sure. But how often can the average Necro attain that set up the way the class is now? Not easily. Not to mention the non raiding content. No other class needs 4 other specific classes to do decent numbers. That's called broken. And there's more wrong with the necro than parse position - you seem to love posting how much your ZW is. Lets massage your ego for a bit and say you're the best Necro in the game, you win. Now stop posting saying all Necro's are fine, because you're screwing everyone else.
Aurelis wrote: That'd be kind of fun with fallen comrades too....sort of a 'temporary' in combat rez. I want the whole corpse though, not just the ghost.
azraelteir wrote: the first few weeks of ROK was an abismal time for necro and i know Xil did not raid then and im pretty sure you din't either. from those times is where the current summoner stigma stem down from, now summoner are doing better but still need a dps boost and some utillity. PS. Xil for the most part exagerates alot, all the advice he gives is all ready given in the forums all you have to do is /serch. yes some necro's have manged to stay competative (me being one of them) but that does not mean that the class isin't in need of a revamp to acomadate for the new mechanics introduced in ROK.
Xil wrote: Let's see, how many things are wrong with what you just posted. Let's count the ways. 1 a warlock with upbeat tempo will gain more dps from it than any necro would. Statement and Fact! Itemization will never fix a class, EVER. Statement and Fact! We are not missing items we are missing core mechanics, itemization can be gained from whatever else every other mage uses. I also like the again mystical inference to the 10k base parses. Yay. Shall we go thru again that if you don't post anything like that its just hearsay? Or is it from the fact that you've somehow convinced whoever you raid with to completely stack the group in your favor, therefore skewing any relevant information? Do you know there was once another person who did that and claimed to be the best ever, when in fact they were just run of the mill normal just like all the other top parsers. And you're right I have never had anything stickied up here cause I don't parade across these forums kissing up to the developers. Any game dev who can't or won't take criticism is a bad developer. I provide feedback be it positive or negative but I don't color it so it makes them feel all fuzzy inside, if somebody designs or creates something that is god awful horrible, I'm not gonna say gee, nice try but maybe go here. I'll teach you all day long but you don't ever seem to listen. People have been trying to update you on game mechanics ever since you started posting that crap about the robe. You really don't understand the basis of how things work before suggesting outlandish things or even saying we're fine. I've known the base class issues since RoK pretty much destroyed the class. You can listen or you can ignore me, but I will not let you keep posting crap that is mostly incorrect or not even going to fix the issues at hand. Bigron has tried correcting you, as have others. And all you come back with saying is chilidish backtalk about how they just want to win at the internetz, yay! Sorry, I'm not like that in real person and I certainly don't pretend to be that here. You want to know how things work, join the worldwide channel and actually talk to the real people playing the classes. Blackburrow.summoner.
Xil wrote: Ok let's teach you something new this week about the game. You like the words hit count. You do realize that producing even 300% more hits that a wizard will still not reduce the fact they and the raid get more from TC right? you can hit all you want for 700 a pop on diss note or potm or pom and still even approach the dps increase a wiz gets with TC. its just a fact. I guess maybe not in your world though. Same with upbeat on a warlock, their slower casting spells hot for more max damage and their spell haste cap is much higher than a necro. You can only reduce a casting speed by so much, and adding TC or upbeat tempo to a necro doesn't take full advantage of that increase vs either of the sorcerors classes. Not to mention most of the big hits from a warlock have dots associated with them, further increasing it usefulness to that class. Oh and I'm glad you brought up your mystical dps graph, we all had a great laugh at that. You can't provide any shred of evidence either fictionally or otherwise of what you claim every time you post. Claiming you had 17k HP is just a lie, and basing random numbers you tried to get people to figure out was just a joke. You're exaggerations are just comical at best. I don't post the way you just described I explain why I think the statements I make with evidence or detailed screenshots of testing. You just make up stuff. Which is better. And oh, looking thru you're so called stickied post...yea looks like it wasn't just because you made a post...thanks should go to Krafoogoo. So what exactly does the necro need specifically in terms of gear? I mean the whole game is centered around a few things. But obviously went don't take advantage of those right? Gear is just fine if they would address and fix the pet stat sharing issue. Or maybe if they looked at the lifetap spell mod mechanic. Oh wait I guess we could just add some mystical dot frequency gear, right? Or your idea of tripling the effect spell mod had on spells, yea that was a good one too. And I may be gruff with my posts to devs, but I do know others who weren't that got invited to help shed light on the necro class, you know what that got them? Ignored. Its because people can't accept criticism, you included. Everytime somebody says you're wrong you start this whole flame session in that post. They can provide information, data, or experience, but guess what you are apparently right all the time. Right...
Xil wrote: First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous. Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again? And your post about how spell mod should effect pets differently, guess you don't really understand how coding works either. Taking an existing mechanic and applying solely to pets just isn't ever going to happen. And oh I did understand your logic in that post, its still wrong tho considering you didn't want just the frontload removed you wanted it all on every tick, or did I not read that correctly and you just wanted it spread over the whole dot which is what me and bigron kept telling you from actually playing with it like that way IS NOT HIGHER DPS?! So either way your point on that is in fact wrong. And I believe if you go back and look at your post about that 17k HP lifeburn you specifically said no bolster, and no soul. Which I did tell you was impossible to obtain. Trying to sound superior when none of the information you provide can be deduced as fact is where everybody here calls you on BS. Claiming you can parse 10-13k in SoH, where the mobs spell mitigation is 2-3 times higher than any other single instance in the game is where everybody here calls BS and doesn't believe a thing you post. And for the record I raid on my necro I don't have any other chars really. And bashing bigron is about all you do these days, he may not be a necro but a lot of people respect his knowledge of the game, including me. I know he knows how to play and how things work. But if you'd like to continue making up things, not providing data to backup what you say, or even just pretending like you know how the game works, keep posting. Me and bigron will probably be right there to show you you're wrong again. Enjoy.
Xil wrote: For the record, sab and bigron are class forum mods for another much better site. So i'd say the majority of "raiding" community respects their opinions... but oh yeah flames is just for hard-core raiders and trollers /rolls eyes. An illusionist/raid leader that puts TC on a necro over a sorcerer is an idiot or the sorcerer is a slacker. This isn't opinion. it's fact. The main reason a necro gets more from "group procs" is not that we cast faster than sorcerers (plays a role yes).. but because pets proc these effects too. What does TC do for the pet's proc 'count'... that's right.. absolutely nothing. Another thread hijacked. gratz
Davngr1 wrote: That would be rediculous DPS no doubt but I think that's what TC can't go on chanters. Even then though it'd still be wasted with Chronomancing. The main reason the procs make all the difference for Necro is because we've got nothing else for sustained DPS but those procs. The more hard hits we can get the larger the increase to our DPS. Sorc's don't get that kind of gain. -------------------------- Our DPS doesn't work like the other mage classes at the core level so trying to lump them in with the same kind of itemization will just create more and more scaling issues. Which is exactly what happened in RoK and continues to happen now. The only difference is they are trying to apply the same failed itemization to pets that doesn't work for the summoner... And you know why? Because none of them understand how summoner DPS works enough to make anything but a mildly educated guess. I wonder if maybe the fact that not a single member of the summoner playing community has ever attempted to explain it to them in a way they might understand. "But... But /sniffle the other mages.... they get the..... /cry" - this garbage is all I can find on flames and on these forums miles and miles of nothing but crying complaining and garbage.... Nobody steps forward and shows the develpers anything useful. How the hell are they going to figure it out? None of them play the damn classes at any kind of skilled level. The real top summoners, the ones who force the issue and push for the highest possible return on the class they play, those summoners and Necro in particular, need to break down how summoner DPS works "AND"(key word here try not to miss it) doesn't work. So the people who are trying to fix it understand what the hell it is they are doing. These games evolve the way players make them evolve. Players figure out ways to play these games the developers never imagined and absolutley cannot predict. And because of this they have to constantly adapt to the changes "players" force on the game. I think they've had over a year of being told how stuff doesn't work now. They've pretty well got that covered. It's no less important to illustrate clearly how things do work well. So they can make adjustments that meet those ends. Instead of taking wild shots in the dark and making things worse. You know how I DPS so well and the other Necro who blow up the parses DPS so well? Because we use every other class that offers us a bonus and turn that bonus into our DPS. That is how Necro DPS works well. We have almost no sustained DPS without doing this. It's pretty rediculous. Completely agree here. But is it broken? I don't know. I rather like it. I can go from doing crap DPS in the scout group with no mage buffs to exploding the parse and nipping at the heals of the Assassin in a Mage group with Wiz/Warlock/Illy/Troub in it. And if you give me a cleric with divine recovery instead of a fury and put Upbeat Tempo on me I can match that Assassin on the zonewide, not just once a while. And so can every other Necro at this level of progression. Once you hit 100% spell crits and enough spell damage those procs stack on top of garunteed large hits and yer zonewide goes WAY up. But it only works if you put Necro in the right group with the right buffs. The developers need to see that too. You can't just try and hide it from them in the hopes that they will throw us the uber bone again like you all had in KoS. You have to show them the absolute most you can do and exactly how you do it. So the adjustments are made that accurately address the core issues. Otherwise they are just gonna try to rework the whole class from the ground up and take the chance of not only failing to hit the mark but make things worse. What's the problem with Summoner? Our pet's don't scale... We need 4 other classes AND great healing to DPS well.... How do we fix that? Find a way to make pet's scale? Lower our dependance on other classes to DPS? Making pet's scale is pretty straight forward. But that dependance part is a big grey area. How are they dependant? What things are needed to make the class function at it's peak? Until those questions are answered. They can't fix anything. Because they don't know what they are working with. So maybe think about that the next time you go to post about how aweful summoner DPS is and how nothing works and it's all broken and boohooo poor me... Maybe instead you show them what does work so the changes they make reflect what is working. Maybe they give us utility that will allow us less dependance on other classes. Maybe they figure out a way to scale our pet's that isn't a complete waste of time and energy. The greatest design leads in the world tell their staff "don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions". If you got no solutions. You're part of the problem. Think about that before you flame me yet again.
