Transmuting discussion thread

azraelteir wrote:

That's an interesting Green
Re: making up to manas... the way I interpret it was fragments -> powders. And *maybe* at most powders - > infusions. I certianly hope there is no infusions -> mana.

Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Like that? lol
Personally I agree, Manas should stay the same as they are now, only achievable by breaking down Fabled loot items, however if the change happens to keep it all fair (playing devils advocate, I cant help it), then it should still require a lot of Infusions or a large number of more than just Infusions (maybe even a common rare or powders as well) to make the Mana, this way they are still the high end rare component.

Leveling transmuting under the old system was both extremely costly and extremely time consuming. Current maxed transmuters must be given both skills at max if this new system is to be institutued. It would be the ultimate kick in the teeth to have to raise adorning skill all over again. We had to expend great effort MAKING ADORNMENTS to get to 400 transmuting already.

DominoDev wrote:

*ponders* ..
So, if I follow you ... you are planning to make Transmuting have (2) Skills .. (1) for pure 'Mutation, that would be leveled up purely by 'smooshing' things and (2) for Adorn Making, that is leveled up by actually Crafting items. ..
Truthfully, I like that idea. While it's a bit more work for us as players than if there were a Commission System for 'Smooshing' .. it still gives us the flexibility to choose to either work on that harder skill (Adorns) on all of our Characters or to skip it and only do the 'Muting skill'. Personally, I am not inclined to do more than the Mutation skill on any but my Main, who is already a Max Transmuter.
Which, brings up the question ... Will we have to redo all the that work to bring up our Adorn Making skill to our Mutation skill when this goes Live? I really, really don't want to ..
Though, I am very glad on your goal of fixing the curve of the amount of products used per Tier, my immediate thought is that this will have some negative impact the T1 Crafting aspect for the Transmuting skill increases.
Comments:

• The first recipes you get are red difficulty, which can be scary to beginner transmuters.

See .. I always thought this was more along the lines of a Warning .. seemed appropriate .. but .. *shrug* whatever.

• We will address the shortage of items in a number of ways. See #5 - reducing the numbers of items required so that you don’t need as many. And see #2 - more people able to transmute will also reduce the cost of the components on the broker, and make more items available as people not interested in making adornments can still break down their old gear. We will also make more transmutable items available if necessary, one option we are considering is to make some of the items that are discovered from scrying stones transmutable.

uh .. I'm pretty sure I have smooshed quite a few of the scrying stone rewards. I think there were a few that didn't work and obviously the 'cash loot' items weren't. So, maybe changing the 'cash loot' items to be a Treasured Item that can be smooshed or vender would be nice. But, an even nicer thing would be to go back through all the various Live Event rewards/purchases. Such as that Icy Keep Armor/Weapons/Jewelry and the TSO & Void Opening Event Armor & Weapons. All those things are flagged as NON-Transmutables.
As Discussions go .. there is really not much for me to debate, already you have outlined a better system than what we currently have and it's just in outline form. I look forward to your synopsis on the actual Adorns themselves.

Oh yes, commissioned smooshing! That's another aspect I'd love to see . Just because I could level transmuting up on every toon doesn't mean I really want to...
And I have to say, if a 400 transmuter doesn't get 400/400 (which is the only way I can see it being, personally), it seems to me that it should be 400 in adorning not transmuting, because you MUST make adornments to level, not transmute items. At worst, I'd think 100 transmuting/400 adorning...

azraelteir wrote:

To comment directly on this ... I think the changing up of ingredients would be fine, even up to Mana, if there were a decent amount of Infusions required. I'd go so far as saying that (20) infusions per (1) Mana would be more than adequate as a Change over as well as a detriment to those who would think to circumvent the system of needing to smoosh Fabled items to get Manas.

Like most maxed out transmuters have posted here already, I agree that if this change goes live, please, please, please give the current maxed out transmuters max skill in both breaking down and making adornments. It was quite a painful process to get here the first time. Please don't make me do it again.
I like giving all the adornment recipies to the transmuters and taking them away from the other crafters. I'm sure there are some non-transmuting crafters that don't like this idea. They can make adornments now and don't want that ability taken away. But what did the other crafters do to be able to make the adornments? They got the books. If they were a max level Jeweler when transmuting came out, ALL they had to do was get the recipe books and they could make the adornments. That's it. Take this ability away and they are STILL a max level Jeweler.
The transmuters worked to be able to break down the components and to be able to make the adornments. They couldn't progress past skill 100 without making adornments. They worked for the ability to make adornments.
Since the ability to be a transmuter is going to be available to everyone, ANY crafter that used to be able to make adornments can level themselves up as an adornment maker/transmuter if they want to get that ability back. Then they'll be able to not only make the adornments for their class but for ALL classes, which is fair because then, they've done the work as well.
I like these changes. And I'm guessing that most that are advocating getting rid of the adornment making part of transmuting and keeping it scattered among the other tradeskill classes, are NOT transmuters.

What I'd like to know is :
1) Will current transmuters be able to be tinkerer as well, it's not said in the OP
2) What will happen to ours skills ? Reset all our work ? and so forget all the money we have paid to rise our skills and the time spent crafting over and over useless adornements with no market? Or Put all our point in only one of the new skills ?

Rethinking the sytem could be a good point but the past speak against your "good idea" : I'm an armorer and after DOF and a "good idea" I didn't sell any more armor. Now I can sell adorment but I wonder if you "good idea" will ruin, again, the way I can earn money without making an alt to farm ?
I never understand why the adornement made by adorners were so useless, only the fabled one has a market (I sell 1 legendary adornements from adorn against 20 from armorers...), so I like the idea to put at last adornement recipe to adorners.
I wonder (I know it's not the current subjet) what I will be able to sell as an armorer after this change... I think you have to think hard to make all crafting profession desirable again.

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

I like the way you think. You have said everything I was going too.

Qandor wrote:

Having a 400/400 transmuter I agree that it would be nice to have the skills at max up to that point and then after that make it the same for all. I would really dislike starting over after the amount of time spent on breaking down and making combines both and then amount of coin i burned through.

When I first heard there would be Transmuters in the game and they could break down items, I thought - great! I will get that Rare from the armor I just outgrew and some other stuff too. But it wasn't that at all. It was other stuff entirely. I don't see the logic in breaking down a spell and getting shards of turquoise and pwders n stuff. If you are doing an overhaul, why not make it logical? That you get some of the components you used back, but maybe a magical version of them..
That aside, I stopped transmuting at just over 100 points because as has been said by various people, it is a money sink. I got to 100+ on my own using books and stuff I stashed as I leveled my Fae. I stopped because unless I had a toon at the right level for that loot, I couldn't get it myself. And then there was no halting your XP, if I remember, so you and or you alts outleveled what you needed.
That isn't challenging as has been said, it is again the provenance of those with the money to sink into the skill.
Yes, I welcome splitting the 2 parts of Transmuting - making adorns is not Transmuting. I would also welcome a better way for leveling the actual muting skill - yes, easier, not because I am not prepared to put time into it, but because as a raw harvesting skill, it shouldn't depend on throwing vast amounts of money at it - no one pays to harvest nodes. If we did, how many Tradeskillers would we have?
zunder the current system, because I could only skill-up by making stuff, another thing that stalled me was not being able to get certain raws without buying up gear got on raids when I don't raid as I'm part of a small clan. Please don't say Why should everything be available to you if you don't go raiding ... that's not the point. It's a craft, not a measure of your adventuring ability. It shouldn't be dependant on raiding except perhaps for items the equivalent of Master books in other crafts. You should still be able to level up effectively at the regular rate say a Carpenter does, or a Provisioner, who has no rares.
Just my 2 cents.


I also like the ideas of getting an expected return for a specific item.

Aurelis wrote:

Please Please address the concern in this post. Having already done "the grind" in the current system (which has been decided to be broken and in need of a change) I do not want to have to grind again to max out a new skill. I hope 400 transmuters will be given 400 adorning as well.

I think the change is good. Will those at 400 transmuting at xpansion launch have to level up both skills once they split? Please say no... even with the change thats triple work for those who went through it long ago.

The only change I *need* to see in transmuting is the elimination of the sound effect that accompanies breaking down an item. It's one of the things that drives me crazy (-ier than I already am), sitting at the bank or broker and hearing that over and over.

Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:

You're guessing wrong. I'm just seeing the bigger picture.

Aleraku@Blackburrow wrote:

What's mostly done right now is contrivance as well. Beghn did it to make sure everyone benefitted from the system but it makes adding adornments a nightmare in market distribution and customer education. Placing them all under one skill reduces the incentives for hairspillting and redundancy that currently plague the system.
Aleraku@Blackburrow wrote:

Adorning as a separate tradeskill is not the same as adorning by adding the item. One is the creation of the jewel, the other is the actual use of it. Adorners can be seen as master gem cutters, tradesmen who specialize in the shaping of the gem but not necessarily its final use. Adorning as a spearate skill allows the harvesting of transmuting to be available to all while not burdening those who don't want a tradeskill with the frustration of creation--just like regular tradeskills now.

Aleraku@Blackburrow wrote:

I advocate keeping adorment making split up, and I am a transmuter.
Adornments are currently a huge market. The changes listed will greatly increase the numbers of tranmuters out there. I still would much prefer to make it as difficult as possible for one person on my server to have that market on near lockdown.
I will likely raise transmuting on three other characters once the change goes live, It is unlikely that I will raise the adornment making side of it on any character other then the one that is already a max skill transmuter. Two of those characters are currently high skill tinkerer's.

I like your ideas a lot. I don't really have a lot to add myself. The one lone thing I would have been concerned about (and have commented on in the past) would have been giving transmuters both all adornments and all possibility of obtaining the components. Under the current system, this would result in a raw material and product monopoly.
But splitting the skills into a harvesting-esque side and the producing side is a great solution to the problem. As well as making the harvesting side's skilling up independent of the producing side's skilling up. It gives raw materials the chance of being more readily available and I think it will work to keep costs reasonable on both materials and the final product.
I would agree that transmuting (and tinkering) reactives should be given automaticallly when the skill is gained, just as they are with the primary tradeskills now.
And I think if normal harvesting raws were able to be incorporated into recipes, that would level the playing field even more among both the two secondary tradeskills and how the secondary tradeskills relate to the primary tradeskills.
My one addition is perhaps adornments could be broken back down in a sort of "salvaging" manner. The adornment crafter would not receive all materials back, of course, but just a fraction of what was used to craft the adornment. This also would keep costs at a reasonable rate.
Of course, if you coupled this with a serum that would allow adornments to be removed safely without destroying them, then costs could be kept very reasonable indeed.

I have a question:
Will new Transmuting and Adorning be equal secondary professions, like Tinkering/Transmutiong now? How many secondary profs one can learn? Can I be 80 Artisan/400 Tinker/400 Muter/400 Adorner? If yes, do you plan more secondaries?

Speaking less oftopically, all changes seems fine, unless you plan to reset my hard-plat-earned skill (which is 375) to zero. And yeah, muting one ingredients to another seems quite interesting, especially if it will work both ways.

Llyren@Kithicor wrote:

I should have been more specific. Let me revise my statement above: And I'm guessing that most that are advocating getting rid of the adornment making part of transmuting and keeping it scattered among the other tradeskill classes, are NOT transmuters, OR have several tradeskill classes that would loose money if it were to happen.
Again, your multiple tradeskill classes did basically NOTHING to be able to do anything related to transmuting or adorning. You had a free ride for a long time based on the current system but didn't do anything to work for it on your other crafters. The sky isn't going to fall just because the adornment making part gets taken away. Your other crafters are still OTHER CRAFTERS.
If you think your other crafter's only use is for making adornments, that's a different issue related to that tradeskill class. Now, I'll admit, it would be pretty messed up if someone leveled up a crafter ONLY because of the adornments they could make. I would imagine however that this is the extreme minority (but will probably be the vocal majority on the forums since the minority won't bother posting). Even if that were the case, they would STILL be whatever tradeskill class they leveled up.
I don't mind working for what I get. I worked for my transmuting skill. I got the ability to break down components and make adornments for some weapons. The hard part wasn't breaking down the items up to level 100. The hard part was breaking down enough materials and crafting enough items to make it from 100 to 400. Having done that work, I like the idea of finally being rewarded for it by getting the ability to make all the adornments. That's how I thought it should have been to start with. As it stands now, transmuters can make SOME of the adornments for weapons.
Now, of course, those with multiple crafters who currently make adornments are going to feel slighted because currently they can make several classes worth of adornments and make some decent money. But again, those other crafting classes didn't DO anything but get the books to be able to make the adornments. We're talking about taking away something that was never earned in the first place. Want the ability back? Build up your adornment making skill like the current transmuters already have.
But that's just the opinions of an 80 Weaponsmith/400 Skill Transmuter.