Tradeskill Epic Quest Bottleneck....

MrWolfie wrote:

1- By "crafting ability" you mean clicking three buttons right?
2- One way to achieve a goal? You mean like harvest/broker? Or are you saying there are multiple ways to click three buttons?
3- Those with 9 trades have 9 opportunities to get the epics. Simple.
4- In the future it will be harder to get the items due to lack of interest. Obviously! Has there been a time in any MMORPG where outdated quests/items/raids/groups/named/instances/epics aren't harder to get when the community moves on to other content?
Mr Wolfie wrote: "We are all here to do as many quests as we can"
Thats simply not true. Some are here to raid, group, tradeskills, farm, decorate, solo, writs, collect shinies... I think Domino has done a great job of trying to include multiple aspects of playstyles in a single quest.
Mr. Wolfie wrote: "Players not doing them is a failure of the games primary function"
Players are doing them. So may I suggest that its a failure of some players to overcome one of the games many challenges? Providing a challenge is also one of the games 'primary' functions.

I love how nobody bothers to read a full post.

DominoDev wrote:

Motown wrote:

I already have my network of supplies and distribution. Why do I need to talk to my competitors?
Because this quest forces me to take business to them.

Other crafters are NOT suppliers or distributors. They're competitors.

If the devs do follow your advice, maybe the next quest line will be for us to score some drugs for the wholesaler, employ the banker's useless cousin, or indeed, take Jayak out golfing...

...but, remember, they're all NPCs.

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

Oh, Sidori, Sidori.

I quote from my post:

"I don't have 9 crafters on one account."

also:

"*small exaggeration, but you'll forgive me"

I never said that a person who has 9 crafters worked harder at their craft. Please don't misinterpret my words.
A person who has one crafter has worked equally as another with the same crafter, to get to level 80. Some may have worked harder on writs and faction too.
This does not make one person more righteous than another, or more deserving than another.

However, a person who has ready access to all 9 crafter types should also not be passed over simply because the designer of a quest wants you to seek out another person.
That's like saying that players matter more than characters. And, in my opinion, they don't. One characters' worth is the same as another, and who (or what) is behind the keyboard is entirely another matter, one perhaps, that the game itself should never address.

Ssyzr@Oasis wrote:

I'm going to do the dishes and have a cup of tea.

Thank you all for your input

Okay, so I got about half of my updates done yesterday thanks to some lovely people. However, I still hate the commission part of the quest and maintain that it's poorly designed. First of all, it's quite time consuming. All week long, I've seen people offering to make the items I needed - but I couldn't get it done, because I was busy, in an instance, in a group, on the other side of the world, about to go to uni class, about to make dinner. If the items were tradable, I could've sent a tell or a mail to the crafters offering, and have them make the item (and me make theirs) and mail them to each other. But because we have to actually meet up and be in the same zone, I've had to pass up on several people offering (as well as several people asking me to make theirs). That sucks, because I hate to miss opportunities almost as much as I hate having to decline people who are in the same boat as me. Not to mention that I will have to go through all of this again, on multiple crafters... it's really quite a huge energy drain of a quest, to be honest.
So Domino asked what makes a test of your tradeskill abilities. Well, my most favourite tradeskill quest ever was the cook-off competitions in Suikoden II. What made them so great was that you were presented with an NPC opponent as well as an NPC jury. Now, the members of the jury all had different personalities, and it was up to you to talk to them and find out what they might like through dialogue hints. Then you picked three courses - depending on what you think the jury would like - from a list of many, and then you made those dishes. In EQ2, I'd have the cooking (or whatever other craft you're doing) be against the clock, and the results from the jury would depend on if you picked recipes the jury would like, and how well you made them. That would test your deductive skills, your crafting speed and your crafting skill. Heck, maybe even let us combine different ingredients from a list to make a whole new item - and test our knowledge/instinct of what ingredients would make the best product.
(By the way, if I had made the rewards, I'd have put something more fun on the cloak, too. Like "Third Bar = Fourth Bar", "5% chance to get back all resources as well as product", "5% chance to make double the product", "5% higher chance of getting a rare reaction" or something like that.)
I'm perfectly fine with having to interact with the community to get my updates - I just wish that you could get the updates via the broker/mail too, because it really is a pain having to actually be there when the item is crafted.
I would like to say that I think it's great that this quest line was put into the game, and the rewards - for what they are - are lovely. I just don't like this one tiny little part of the quest one bit - everything else is great.

Ssyzr previously wrote: 1- By "crafting ability" you mean clicking three buttons right?

Yes. Now can you design a quest that will test the ability to craft an item perfectly? Because I did in my earlier post, that you obviously didn't read all of.
And, btw, there's six buttons.
Sure I can design a quest. Why bother however when there is a portion of the epic that does in fact require you to make items, I suppose you could quibble and say that that particular portion should be timed.

I am curious if you could point out a particular reason why you feel that I did not read all of your post? Is it that I did not address each and every sentence? I could do so if that would help you from making incorrect assumptions.

And BTW - there are 6 buttons, 3 of which work at one time. So be it 6 buttons or 600 - only 3 are relevant to the discussion.


Ssyzr previously wrote: 2- One way to achieve a goal? You mean like harvest/broker? Or are you saying there are multiple ways to click three buttons?

Well, obviously, there are multiple ways to click three buttons. Duh. Maybe as many as 81 different ways. And there's six buttons, so more ways again.
But we're not talking about buttons.
Please read the whole thread before you come back to this one.
First you assume that I have not read your post, now you assume that I have not read the thread. You suggested an alternate option for how you feel the quest should have been done, fine. Perhaps someone will like the idea and a future quest will reflect just what you suggested. This however does nothing to change the fact that this quest had a different idea that you simply object to.

I am glad you don't wish to talk about buttons. I was attempting to make the subtle point that in the process of clicking those three buttons the impied challenges that you suggest are nonexistent. I will be more clear however : making something in tradeskills is absurdly easy and any challenge that you can imagine is simply not challenging. If in fact the developers do find a better method to increasing the "skill" required for trades I will be the first to congradulate them. For now however it appears they are stuck with the mechanic that exists currently, and are trying to find new and innovative ways to make crafting a challenge.


Ssyzr previously wrote: 3- Those with 9 trades have 9 opportunities to get the epics. Simple.

Nope. Those 9 will have to seek out, at least, nine other real life people.
They will be more inconvenienced than any other crafter, by nine times.
When they could have used the resources they already had.
You mean players will have to seek other players to accomplish goals? This is a disturbingly familiar idea, perhaps raids and groups could be considered for a valid analogy? I remember way back when I raided with 71 of my competitors for 1 piece of gear. Personally I found it enjoyable.

Ssyzr previously wrote: 4- In the future it will be harder to get the items due to lack of interest. Obviously! Has there been a time in any MMORPG where outdated quests/items/raids/groups/named/instances/epics aren't harder to get when the community moves on to other content?

Well, nearly everyone else seems to be in denial about this.
I'm glad we agree about something.
It doesn't bolster your point however. You appear to be in denial that this is in fact a MMORPG.
Mr Wolfie wrote: "We are all here to do as many quests as we can"

Ssyzr previously wrote: Thats simply not true. Some are here to raid, group, tradeskills, farm, decorate, solo, writs, collect shinies... I think Domino has done a great job of trying to include multiple aspects of playstyles in a single quest.
LOL. There is no-one playing this game who has never done a quest.
It's the name of the game.
Don't pick hairs. Or quote out of context. This is a response to the lame idea that we simply "avoid doing this quest" instead of getting it improved.
True, everyone has done a quest. The fact remains that everyone has done all or many of the examples that I listed previously. So your assertion that "we are all here to do as many quests as we can" is simply false. The fact of the matter is that a majority of the population do in fact avoid quests. People do not scour the game in an attempt to complete each and every quest available to them. If your claims that everyone is here to do as many quests as possible, then the top 100 questers would be vastly different. Do not accuse me of picking hairs or quoting out of context when I am directly responding to your incorrect claims that we are all here to do as many quests as we can. I can attest to my assertion based soley on personal experience if need be, I do play this game to do each and every quest possible and I have met very few people who do the same. I will once again suggest a review of the top 100 on your server to see what I mean.


Mr. Wolfie wrote: "Players not doing them is a failure of the games primary function"

Ssyzr previously wrote: Players are doing them. So may I suggest that its a failure of some players to overcome one of the games many challenges? Providing a challenge is also one of the games 'primary' functions.

Again, a direct response to posters suggesting that we don't do quests that have components that we find upsetting, distasteful or just plain wrong, instead of attempting to show why there's a problem and what can be done to rectify it (aka improve the quest).
You have not shown any portion of the quest to be upsetting, distasteful, or wrong for the community as a whole. If your claims of personal distastfulness had equal relevance to all the other folks who found parts of this game to be distastful we would not have a game. Did you know that some people do not like tradeskills, soloing, grouping, raiding, collecting shinies, doing writs, grinding, questing, decorating homes, using the broker, or playing alts?

I did notice however on a different reply that you said:

Mr. Wolfie wrote: Other crafters are not suppliers or distributors. They are competitors.

Your inability to put aside your competitive nature for the furthering of a quest is an apparent weakness on your part. It is also a narrow minded opinion unless you are also pushing for EQ2 to become a completely solo game. Group and raid drops also "force" you to compete with other players for gear, money, and spells. Do you refuse to group with players if they share your same tradeskill? Do you refuse to help a guildy if they could someday be a competitor?

If you can make 1 of 9 trades and need to seek out the other 8 - why are they competitors to you at all? If you have all 9 trades why can't you simply ask a person who does not sell the same items that you sell in the broker? Surely there is a tradeskiller that has done the epic but is not a direct competitor for your wares. Additionally; are you really on non-speaking terms with each and every person who sells the same wares as you? Do you refuse to buy from them if they are selling something you need/want?

MrWolfie wrote:

Unless you hired an alchemist to make your solvent when you are yourself an alchemist, you didn't hire your competitors. Your character as opposed to the account holder is the business. Unless you outsourced your own trade, you didn't hire your competitors.

You do see the distinction, don't you?

MrWolfie wrote:

Other crafters are suppliers when the supply you with things you cannot make yourself. My alchemist doesn't compete with weaponsmiths.

If one wants to argue from a somewhat realistic, business point of view, I take it that you're assuming that an account (or two) covering the nine crafts makes one some kind of self-sufficient conglomerate who should be able to do this quest without any interaction with the world. I would contend that one is not such an entity unless one has nine accounts and can produce in parallel. The other eight crafts are unable to supply the ninth because they do not exist at that time. My sage cannot supply my alchemist for the purpose of this quest because she does not exist at the time. I have to shut down my alchemy operations to bring my sage enterprise online, as I have only one factory, capable of running one line at a time, but with the capability of producing nine lines of product. Unless I can operate and interact all nine crafts simultaneously, I don't have "all bases covered" and, for the purposes of this quest which requires a cooperative key process, will have to outsource.

It is possible, of course, to expand and buy another eight or so factories, thereby enabling all nine lines to run at once. Then, and only then, can this quest be completed using in-house resources exclusively.

I think most of MrWolfie's comments have already been answered by others! The suggested mechanisms like requiring exactly 50% durability through the 4th bar aren't currecntly possible without a code request change - you either get the product, or you don't, so far as our quest system can detect. Trying to detect exact values of what bar was where and when would require a programming change which was not going to happen if this quest were to be out with the other epics -- and quite honestly I really can't see why we'd want to do this. One critical success or failure at the wrong time and you'd fail the quest completely beyond your control and where is the fun in that? This would just be annoying.

Talking to NPCs to get 'hints' about what to make will only work for the first person to do it, and then it's straight to a spoiler site or in-game chat channels. Look at the cloaks; they were a 'hidden' reward, you were supposed to remember that you promised Jayak you'd bring him news if you visited Rivervale, but your quest didn't prompt you to go back, and in all other ways it looked as if you'd finished your epic at step 5. I imagine the first people through the quest took a while to figure out maybe they should go back to him. But since then every walk-through tells you where to go and the chat channels have just been full of people saying "where do I get the cloak" and "don't forget to go back to the sarnak" etc. Dialog hints don't work so well in a MMO, particularly one with so many spoiler sites as we have. And even if the dialog was slightly random (which would take a LOT more work to do) there would still be a limited number of possible combinations and it wouldn't take too long for the spoiler sites to figure them all out. Ask yourself how many of you actually sit and listen to the old guy in the courtyard in the Isle of Mara before answering the tower guards' questions ... and how many just do a Google search or check a spoiler site for the answers. It's unfortunate, because I'd love to write lots of clever dialog for people to puzzle through, but that's just the way this type of game seems to work.

As for the commissioning ...

Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:

As others have pointed out, crafters of other classes are not competitors, they are suppliers. Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships with them is important. Also, participating in the crafting community on a server strengthens it, imo. Personal contact is more meaningful, and making that extra effort to complete your quest makes it mean more. I'm all in favor of strengthening ties and making acquaintances within the community. But that said, from another practical level this is also a quite deliberate time sink. It takes time to colled 8 items in person. That time sink would not exist if you bought them from the broker, or mailed them. If the pieces were brokerable there would be dozens listed, it would take approximately 60 seconds to complete this step of the epic, and the entire quest could be done in under 2 hours from when you are given the starter - much less if you can port. That's not an epic quest, that's a bit of running around and a shopping errand.

Of course, there are various other ways to increase the time commitment that a quest requires -- anybody doing some of the adventuring epics can tell you that. Waaaaay more faction grinding, camping rare spawns/drops, requiring you to harvest 10 T8 rares, finding a group to escort you to a special crafting station ... these are all present in the adventuring epics. Personally, I feel that making friends with 8 other crafting classes to commission the items needed is much more fun, less annoying, less artificial feeling, and much more fun, which is why this step is the way it is. If it were changed so the items were tradeable, this quest would be trivially fast and easy and not worthy of the rewards you get unless some other requirement were added -- such as having to personally harvest all those T5 rares after getting the quest, for example. The quest is supposed to be challenging in many ways, and being willing to commit time and effort in some way is one of those challenges and one of the reasons that we can give nice rewards at the end.


Edit to add: and yes, some of the adventuring epics require you to harvest for HOURS in T8. And I haven't heard them complaining "omg I'm an adventurer not a harvester". So be very happy the tradeskill quest doesn't require the same ... it easily could have been justified!

Domino is soooo my hero!

DominoDev wrote:

DominoDev wrote:

Domino, do you really think it's that fun?
Honestly.

Reading this thread is starting to feel like watching someone beat a dead horse.

Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:

<looks at his monitor... baffled...>

Hey Domino, next time, make it so it's truly an epic experience, make it so you have to have all nine crafters available... at the same time, in a raid. (when I got to that stage, I was relieved that I could do it... one person at a time, when I could find them, as oppose to the adventurer version who you need a whole group, together, at the same time)

Come on people... I'm busy doing something else? Give me a break!

Next... the adventurers are going to be asking for updates for quests remotely... because I'm too busy crafting to do a COA update. Or even better... "Hey Domino... I'm too cheap to pay my SOE subscription... can you take me to level 80 and give me my epic just because I think I deserve it??" /turns off sarcasm

Domino, the quest line was great... I would even argue too easy. I was thinking last night as I was doing the original 10 and 10 combines in the watch, "shouldn't this be timed... like a rush order... that would be a test of skill." (and for those who don't think there is skill involved, when you do commissioned work, watch how some people whip it out fast... while others take forever)

Or better, make it so the quest line requires at least one of each main classes (outfitter etc)

Wallzak wrote:

CASUAL. This is a casual game. Chillax!

Getting things done when you want to.
Not reliant on others.
Unplanned.

Yes. If a person also happens to be in a group deep in COA then they cannot leave to go do another quest. At least, as Domino said, if the harvesting was a requirement, it could be done without recourse to other players (who, imo and that of some others, will be a problem down the line when no-one wants to have anything to do with this quest ~ it's not like we casuals can grey this part out later).

Not only that, but this person is getting tells from other crafters to come help them and, as much as they want to, they cannot because they're stuck in a dungeon. Does that help make a relationship friendlier, having to say "no, sorry, I'm busy"?
Yeah, that's just what people who want to help others want to be saying to improve their relationships and make new friends.

The player isn't saying they won't make the item. They're complaining about the process of comissioning as a quest update.
They're not complaining about communicating with other players. They're complaining about not being able to help out, when normally they could.
They're not complaining about not having a update quest "now" button either. But they are complaining that time sinks have no place in modern gaming.

And I'm 100% in agreement.

DominoDev wrote:

But crafters of other classes are NOT suppliers, and have not been since inter-dependency was removed, what three years ago? Since then other crafters have been people whose listings I see on the broker. Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships has not been important at all for a very long time, and outside of this quest, will continue to be unimportant. Heck, the harvest bots that dump 1000s of raws on the broker are far more important "suppliers" than any other crafter. And yes, if the items were tradable, there would hopefully be some on the broker - but guess what, the broker and the market are pretty huge parts of being a tradeskiller! I know I spend far more time on the broker - looking for deals, checking prices, seeing what's selling and what's not - than I ever will interacting physically with the rest of the crafting community. After all, what good is being a crafter if you can't SELL what you make?
Yes, it's a deliberate time sink. That is partly why I am complaining. Time sinks are not acceptable replacements for challenge or difficulty. If you had created the exact same quests, but instead of having to get 8 items from 8 other crafters, "Proof of the Pudding" required me to simply sit on my behind and wait for two weeks as a timer ticked down, that would be a time sink too. It would certainly make the quest more "difficult" and require more "time and effort" spent on it, but would it be good quest design? Would it be FUN? No, not really, and neither is "Proof in the Pudding". Yes, I realize that some people had fun teaming up to make these updates for each other - but guess what, you could've done that and had your fun even if the items were tradable. Or do you community-happy guys actually NEED to be forced into doing things the way you like to? If so, it kinda sucks that you force it on me too.
I will do the epic adventuring quest eventually (not quite 80 yet), but I have already heard and read all about it and know what is required of me - and guess what, it's far easier and more fun than the epic tradeskill quest. Harvest for hours in T8? Sure thing, yeah it's pain but at least I'm *doing* something (as opposed to spamming the chat channels looking for other crafters to make my updates, or sitting around monitoring the chat channels all day - I can't go DO anything, because I need to be available for the commissioning, or doing /who all woodworker 80 over and over all day long). By the way, if you haven't heard the complaints of "omg I'm an adventurer not a harvester", you obviously don't go to the same forums or listen to the same channels as I do.
I've been playing this game since release, and I've done pretty much every single non-raid (and some raid) quest out there on one character or another, so yeah, I know all about faction grinding, camping and grouping. Unfortunately, I don't think "but there's worse stuff out there!" is a particularly good reason to add a bottleneck like this to a quest. The one other quest in the game that I would liken it to is farming the eyes to finish the Peacock line - it's pretty much exactly the same in the way it deliberately annoys and wastes the player's time. I farmed loads of eyes, by the way, but never got to finish the quest line myself - and that's how it's looking to be with this quest too - me making loads of champagne and picnic baskets for others, but never (or at least not anytime soon) getting what I need - ONLY because of the way the quest is designed. It really does make me feel like, that despite all the work and effort I put in, I'm "always the bridesmaid (churning out champagne), never the bride (hello woodworkers/armorsmiths where are you?)". Bleh.

Wallzak wrote:

What's so baffling about being busy, exactly? I play a healer - when I come online, there will generally be people wanting me to go with them to some instance. Am I supposed to tell them "sorry, I'm going to sit around spamming channels until I get a crafter to make me something"? Am I supposed to go with the group, but then dump them, healer-less, inside a dungeon with a lockout when some crafter I need does come along? When someone asks me to make something, am I supposed to dump my group? When people ask me to come to a group which will get adventuring updates or loot that I need, am I supposed to stay stuck in Qeynos in the hope that maybe, just maybe, a friendly woodworker happens to pass by?
It doesn't compare to interrupting crafting for adventuring, because crafting generally takes place in one's hometown, or at least a friendly place with lots of connections. Crafting also doesn't give you lockouts, and if I decide to stop crafting to go get an adventuring update, I don't disappoint 5 other people. Crafting can be dropped any time you like, without penalty (unless you just drank a tradeskill xp potion, I guess), but dropping adventuring just like that does have penalties associated with it (I repeat, lockouts, disappointed group memebers, disappointed guildies that needed me, and to be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure your reputation would drop like a rock if you left a group to go craft. Whereas pretty much nobody would care if you took time out from crafting to adventure...).
The quest line was too easy, I agree with that, though I did enjoy what was there. Even "Proof in the Pudding" is easy - the only difficulty is finding someone to make my update. I would much rather still be out there, harvesting, making level 100 recipes, dodging red mobs, looking for clues as what to do next or doing timed recipes than SITTING doing NOTHING and HOPING that someone who can make my update will log on (it doesn't even compare to camping, because NPCs *will* spawn eventually. Who knows when a woodworker, who is 80, who has the quest, who isn't busy, who will make me my item, will log on?). To be honest, I would actually have preferred it if you DID need all nine crafters available at the same time, in a raid - because guess what, I'd have my nine updates by now and so would everybody else. There would be no inequality between those who got lucky/play in a good time slot/play in big guilds/play a rare crafter class/etc, because if a raid was needed, it would mean that if ONE person get the updates they need, so do everybody else that are there and participating.

What is baffling is the way some people come across. "I'm busy with some adventuring, just let me buy my crafting update (Or let me somehow get it exactly when I deem I have 5 spare minutes between the "real" gameplay of doing instances and am in Teren's Grasp where other crafters have been hanging out so alignment is not an issue)." This is a crafting epic! This is a game that requires you to make some choices. You have to choose between running CoA or running Maiden' or running Vaults. You can't do all those things at the same time. Should you be entitled to buy your CoA updates because you were already in a Chelsith group and could not join the one advertising for a healer for CoA? You people need to stop thinking of the crafting epic the way many of you think of crafting in general...something to do as a sidebar during your adventure downtime.

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:

In full agreement with this quote..

What it looks like to me is MrWolfie does not like Domino and is just trying to argue with her at this point and its getting highly frustrating to see, considering Domino has done alot for this community.