Tradeskill Epic Quest Bottleneck....

Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:

I'll take that bet too. When I finally get there I'll make 'em fuel + tips with your rare. Just like I do morrors and Adornments.

Ok here's a helpful tip for those that think that in 6 months they won't be able to find a crafter.

Do it now. Don't wait. I was in a whirlwind of ts epics, and forgot to get the final quest with my carpenter. /shrug so I'm a bit blonde!!

However I did an exchange of services with an alch. Huh... no update. Oh crap, forgot to get the quest!!

Well, ran to rivervale, got the quest, and the alch item instantly updated!

So you can get all 9 items today, and then do the quest in 6 months and still benefit.

Tada. Problem solved!

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

That's not a viable alternative to me (and im guessing the majority that have done this quest). That would just be adding another 'make or buy 8 items' step, and who really wants that?? that would just be giving those that seek to profit from it another set of items to throw on the broker.
Most of the people that are unhappy with this quest (thankfuly a very small minority) have said that they believe it will be far to difficult to find other crafters in the future to help with this step, or will be charged far to much the combines. If this is the case (and I dont for one minute believe it will be), then how is such a difficult step a 'gimme' step?
How does developing relationships (no-matter how brief) with others in the crafting community cheapening the process?
This quest has stages that prove you can craft the most difficult items. This quest has stages that prove you are willing to take risks to further your craft. This quest has stages that proves you are willing to invest coin or harvesting time to show your a master of your profession.
And, the most relevant point to this discussion, this quest also has a stage that proves that you are willing and capable of communicating with and bartering/negotiating with your peers to obtain items that your character cannot manufacture themself.
I dont believe this cheapens the process one bit. In fact it strengthens your right to use the title 'master'.
So, show me an alternative idea that still ticks all those boxes and I'll happily listen. Until then, if you dont want to get invovled with your fellows, dont do this quest. Just dont whine about it, suck it up and carry on as you did a couple of weeks ago when we didnt even know there was such a thingas an epic TS quest.

DominoDev wrote:

Its always nice to have a developer so devoted to the community that she is always ready to come down to the coliseum arena with the rest of us to become involved. Thanks again for that.
I dont doubt there will be reasons for every decision made for every quest, and thats, both, the right and duty, of a good developer. I dont doubt either, that the quest is working as intended. But with all due respect, I dont think its a bad idea to discuss over concepts and mechanics... now that we are all talking about building a sense of community, this is what its about, isnt it? I agree that buying an epic off the broker is not something fun..., I cant agree more with that. What I fail to see, again, with all due respect, is why its funnier buying it off other crafters in person instead of via broker, because, when all the fuss of the first days passes and all the fun and camaraderie of "lets do a crafting raid" its over, thats what will happen. The making of those items wont be more camaraderie and community building than the making of a set of ebon vanguard armor. If we are looking for that close contact between customer and crafter, wont that question the very existence of the broker for every crafted item? Im just trying to play devil advocate here, again, with all due respect. I will leave it at that and thank you again for your interest in us.
Rainmare wrote: "you're just going to have to suck it up and realize they made a quest for crafters that doesn't allow you to make all your own components.
You are a tradeskiller. a craftsman. part of being that is having the ability to interact with others to form business relationships."
I do "suck it up". Im not quitting or anything about this minor issue. But I have the right to express my opinion, as good or bad as anyone else's. And the business relationships needed for any crafter are pretty well established in this game via the broker, that wonderful tool. I "suck it up" and give my opinion.
Kalyyn wrote: "I cant understand why people think it will be more difficult to get these items made, than it is to get any other item made. i have (and i know I have posted this before, but it seems to require saying again) never had a problem finding a crafter to make any item for me, and always at a reasonable rate. And if the crafters you have found in the past have charged you 20pp for a combine, then more fool you for paying it and I expect you havnt looked hard enough. (as you have all of the proffesions at cap, i expect you haven't had to find someone else to make an item for you in a long time, so how exactly do you know just how hard it is?)"
I cant understand how you cant understand it, frankly. Try to find an armorer to make you a full suit of steel chainmail. I can guarantee you this: it will be a lot harder and slower than it was at launch, when most of the population was 20-30, and a loooot more expensive. Now you have to look a lot more for an armorer if you want a full set of ebon than you had to look before DoF. I have never paid 20 pp for a combine, obviously. I havent been the one putting that number on the table, just took it from another poster that stated that was the price some people were asking. I never said I had all the crafters at cap, and of course I know the availability and prices of items, being a crafter myself, and also, I play the game, so I know exactly how hard everything, more or less, is.
Also wrote: "A lot of time has been spent here arguing over this step. Its all pretty mute. As the quest stands (and I know 99% of people, I have spoken to or read posts from,wouldnt want it changed) the final part of this quest is designed to get you out working with your fellow crafters."
Absolutely correct, except the 99% part. I wouldnt say 99% agree with this. But youre right, the quest is as it is and you can choose to do it or not. As it should be. You also are entitled to give your opinion as long as its respectful... this is what a forum is about.
And, Kalyyn, in any serious discussion about anything, you can ask people to give you alternatives. What you cant seriously ask is that those alternatives be viable for you. I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours... I wont ask you to give me ideas acceptable to me to value your points... that way there wouldnt be an argument, would it?
You make the point of us not wanting to interact with other crafters, I would say you almost revolve your entire argument around that idea. I assure you I have no problem whatsoever interacting with other people. Fortunately, I belong to a wonderful and numerous guild and I think we dont miss any 80 crafter, so I will have no problem whatsoever whenever I feel like getting that cloak. But if you ask me if I think that the quest has a good design and will last in the future, I point out I have doubts on both accounts. Sorry not to agree with you. I respectfully claim my right to disagree.

Poetelia wrote:

First of all, if anything I have posted has not come across as respectful of other peoples opinions, i apologise, this was not my intention.

There seem to be 2 views from those that see the final part of this quest in a negative way, and not all hold both views. Sorry if I seemed to be addressing my resposnes to any person in particular, just more at the general views.
firstly, people think that it will be difficult to find someone to craft the items in the future.
I really believe strongly that it will not be any more difficult than it currently is to get any normal item made. I can only go on my own and others that I have spoken to's experiences. But I have never had a problem finding someone to make me any item for a reasonable price. I posted previously of all the good stories I have heard while chatting to various people over the last few days. And these good stories seem to be multiplying. Yes, I agree it may not be quite as easy as it is at the moment. But I don't foresee it taking more than a couple of days to find the crafters you want, at most. Just putting a message into level chat or your servers trade channel every half hour or so, while your crafting or out adventuring, will soon get you a response.
In my experience the hardest thing to get done is a full-set of armour or a full-set of jewellery. As you need to find someone willing to spend the time making multiple combines. It can take a little while to find someone, but it can always be done.
With these items, we are going to be looking for multiple crafters, but each crafter will only be making one combine. So only a small amount of their time is needed and more chance of finding someone willing to do it.
As a test, try on your server to find a sage to make you a lvl 60 spell, or a jeweller to make you a lvl 52 earring. I am betting it wont take long to find someone.
But, what the situation will be in 6 months is pure specualtion on our parts. Im just willing to stand by my bet that it will not be as difficult as some foresee.

I have been trying to think why I feel so strongly about this. And have come to the conclussion that I feel this quest was a huge step in the right direction for tradeskilling in EQ2. Crafting has long been the little-thought-of cousin of adventuring here, and thats a shame. Anything that can be done to make it more fun, to appeal to others, to add some new element to the whole crafting world is a great thing. We have had more love thrown our way since Domino took over than we have had since the game launched.
This quest has people coming together as a community. Something a lot of people have enjoyed and something I hope people can enjoy in the future.
We have all seen cases in the past where a vocal minority moan about something enough that it is changed. And I would hate to see this changed in anyway.
And looking to the future, I would hate to see a full-reversion to the inter-dependancy of the old days. This took it to far.
Normal and mastercrafted items should be made, from scratch, by one artisan at a workstation.
But , maybe, if we had a few more items thrown in, that required some co-operation between different people, then more people will start to see the good that can come from working together. Then , maybe, there will be more people available to spend a few minutes just to help another person out.
Again, I would want this for only a small amount of items and the vast majority left as-is. But a few more no-trade, commission only items would be great.
Maybe, after someone has been through this quest, and called in the help of 8 other crafters, they will realise just how good it felt to be helped. then next time they are asked, they will be more inclined to help themselves.

Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:

Unfortunately, I honestly think crafting will always be second to adventuring, at least until people begin to think that the effort and time you spend at a crafting station equals time adventuring. Its all about making things people may desire. I kind of laugh when I hear the risk-v-reward argument. I always answer that Ive never received an electrical discharge from the keyboard when I died, so the risk is kinda relative. So, in the end, it measures on time lost playing the game. Thats the risk.

Maybe the reason people have so much trouble finding someone to do a lower level combine is because they don't put in the effort?
If someone does a /who all <insert crafter> and sends me a tell "excuse me, I need a t4 combine, I have all the ingredients <lists ingredients> and fuels, and will come to you. Would you do the combine for me?" I'm all over that. Lets see. They come to me. They hand me every single item needed plus the fuels. All I have to do is spend just under 2 minutes to do the combine? And I'm already in a crafting instance? Yeah I'll do that.

On the other hand, what most people do is say "hey I need a combine, will you do it? I'll donate".
Me: "what do you need?"
Them: "you know, like t4 armor"
Me: "plate, chain?"
them: "I'm a <insert class>"

And on it goes. In other words, they want ME to do all the work for a combine that's 40 levels or more below my current level. For, maybe, if I'm lucky, a 5gp tip, but most likely barely the fuel costs.

I'm doing all the work and its to your benefit? HUH? So yea, I don't wonder at the fact that people have a hard time finding crafters. Its not cause we aren't out there. Its because you (generic you, not directed at anyone here) are too lazy to put in any effort. Send me a tell asking for the recipe if you don't know where to look it up, then go get the ingredients. Buy them, harvest them, I don't care. You make the effort, and a lot of crafters will be happy to help out.

Don't put in any effort, expect me to drop everything I'm doing, guess what? Yes you are going to get the cold shoulder.

Sorry I know I'm ranting, but this bothers me no end. Why will people just not put in any effort of their own? POTP is the same way, make sure you have all the ingredients and the fuel. Don't expect the other guy to have it all. If you are having trouble, put together a PotP party. Yes even 6 months from now it will still happen. Not every night but its doable. Announce it on the server forums. You can get this done.

OMG the sky is falling!!!!!!!

Well, not right now but it's going to....someday...I swear it! And its all going to be because of this...just you wait and see...

Its going to happen on some idle day ending in "Y" between 0:00:01 AND 24:59:59 come rain or shine when the server is full of peeps or empty and I wont be able to find anyone willing to help me at all and then you'll see what I am talking about.

Honestly, are you going to come back in 6 months and tell us you were wrong?

As cynical as I am I would gladly take your bet and accept your plat.

Until the Earring item is replaced with something more useful which I dont see happening in the very near future this will be a viable quest. The combines dont take anything extra for crafters to make, same harvested materials, same old workstations, same locations. If anything I am, as are many other people I know on our server and apparently in the forums, more willing to help you with an item needed for a quest than just some MC upgrade you want or need to be more uber. I am doing the combines for gratis, I ask that the materials be supplied, nothing else. Dont expect me to do that for things like AA mirrors, A3 spells, weapon upgrades, housing items, etc.

I hate having quests in my journal I cant complete

erin wrote:

QFE

That said I must collar den-mum at some point and ask if she can add a list of resources below her screenshots of the 'full sets' of clothing/armor.

Would save a lot of trouble as the poor non-crafter and look at the website and thing "I want that one"!

Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:

You won't be able to include me in that camp because I haven't posted that sort of opinion. That facet of things isn't part of my dissent with the quest as it stands. I don't think it will be difficult to find someone to make the combine in 6 months, nor do I think that they will charge an arm and a leg. I think that step of things will be the same sort of "gimme" step that it is right now. There's a lot of dislike of "buying your epic off the broker" in regards to this issue and having tradeable items in the quest, but having tradeable items involved in the quest is no less buying the epic than if you could go look someone up on the broker and get the items from them.

How much personal effort does it take to do a /who on a certain type of crafter that you need and send a tell, or put out a message in a channel and send a tell? Now how is that more effort than finding someone on the broker who has an item and either buying it straight out or going to their house?

I speak up on this sort of thing because this isn't a trend I like to see at all, differing from your stance on it. I don't want something made more "hard" because it involves more people. More people does not automatically equate to more challenge or more effort. If a group of crafters had to get together and accomplish some goal together, such as with the griffon towers (which I missed unfortunately due to work) and the spires (which I did get to have a lot of fun participating in) then I could get behind the idea. But the only requirement here is to stand there while someone else does work and you get the item. This artificial limitation on the quest that requires other people but has no logical reasoning why one should need another person is what I disagree with.

I have many reasons to be against the quest implementation as it stands, not just one. I'll list the top ones:1. It's not a true judge of your crafting ability.2. There's only one way to achieve the goal. It's a limiting and artificial mechanic.3. It's undeniably a slight at those people who have worked 9 times harder* than anyone with a single crafter.4. In the future, in my opinion, it will be harder to get all the required items due to lack of interest on the part of others.The counter-arguments are:1. Crafting requires community.2. Suck it up or don't do the quest.3. Tough. See #1 about not being insular.4. No, in my opinion, it won't. Nyaa nyaa nyaa.OK, we'll wait and see on #4. However, the other three counter arguments hold no weight whatsoever. Crafting isn't about community, it's about crafting and supplying desirable products; it's about business (and I think you'll find that Richard Branson is not friendly with Rupert Murdoch). If being a master craftsman is about the quality of your wares, then the quests should reflect that and should test your ability as a crafter. I'd have had bake-offs against the clock, or perhaps having to make food for an ogre, and if you don't make it with 100% in both progress and durability, then the ogre beats you to death (not that the quest tells you this beforehand).I'm sure that we could come up with other quests specifically tailored to test each class.Suck it up? Don't do the quest?This is EverQuest!! We are all here to do as many quests as we can. The developers are there to put in as many quests as they can for us to do. Players not doing them is a failure of the game's primary function.I don't have 9 crafters on one account. If I did, I'd feel aggrieved. I can sympathise. You should try it the next time someone complains, maybe they have a valid point.
*small exaggeration, but you'll forgive me

I hear a lot of whining... so you have to find 8 other crafters. It's not like you're going to die if you don't. I think this interdependency builds a lot of server community -- I know it has on AB, with crafting raids and all. While I'm sure the "crafting raids" will become rare as time passes I imagine they may become scheduled events instead. And on a regular server I can't see how it's so bad to rely on other crafters. Maybe AB's community is just so good and maybe some aren't so great but in a time span of say a week I can't see any way to *not* find all 9 crafters willing to make it for cheap.

DominoDev wrote:

No! Not that! Anything but that! AHHHHHHHHHHH *jumps off a cliff into lava... and slowly takes fire damage*

OK, not as dramatic... stupid lava...

MrWolfie wrote:

All right, out of curiosity and perhaps for future reference:

1. but what would be? You already have to make a level 100 item with a higher than usual fail rate not using your "best" class buffs. Without rewriting the entire mechanics of crafting, what would be a "true judge"? As someone earlier posted, this quest already makes you craft your normal stuff, has you harvest, tests your knowledge of how to get around Norrath, tests your nerve and ability to sneak around, tests you on a level 100 recipe, tests your patience in gaining faction, tests your knowledge of your community and ability to work with others ... what more do you feel is missing?

2. this being a game created with the use of artificial mechanics, our quests do tend to be like that ... I'm unclear how this differs from any other quest however. What would be an example of another quest that's different?

3. I find this entirely and 110% deniable. It isn't a slight in the tiniest bit. It treats them exactly and 100% the same as every other crafter. What it doesn't do is say "ooh you're special" and give them any advantage either ... but it in no way slights anybody.

4. time will tell on this one.

MrWolfie wrote:

Part of business, an essential part, is networking. Part of business is supplier and distributor relationships. Branson mightn't be buds with Rupert, but you can bet he has the odd game of golf with his fuel suppliers, telcoms partners and others who contribute to the running of the empire.

Personally, I think this quest is more like real business than any other aspect of crafting, as much as our inner control-freak may rebel.

I don't know about other crafters, but the response to this quest on the AB server has been very good.
Every crafter i've ran across has only asked for help in making an item in return and fuel costs for their time... and that's it. No-one is charging stupid prices for actually making the items. The earring is very nice, but I have to admit that I was slightly disappointed with the cloak. I only use it in my apperance slot or if i'm crafting. Yeah, I know it's a reward for a crafting quest, but it would've been nice if it was slightly more useful. The heat resist isn't useful for me as a 78 Berserker, so I continue to use my Garanel's Mantle. A + to your crafting skill would've been very nice, IMO.
However, getting one of every T8 rare rocked. I shipped the Incarnadine to my 80 weaponsmith, sent the fire emerald to my girlfriend who is a Warden so she can get an AD3 and used the loam to get one of my skills made. The rest got sold. I was a bit annoyed to see that the quest used rares though. Because of this... on a good day, ebon clusters are sitting at 4.5p. On a bad day, they're right up at about 9p. I don't know about other servers, but the amount of people doing this quest has made the nodes very contested. That doesn't even factor in the people who harvest JUST for cash.
That's pretty much my only complaint with this... the cloak reward and rare requirements.

I know some people on Butcherblock have completed this quest, but I've been broadcasting requests for crafters to help for two days now. I still need five of the items.
The OP is right. It's a bottleneck.
One nice thing, no one is charging to make the Pudding item, although the prices for the rares are through the roof.
Of course, the RNG is working correctly as it always does. It is just pure luck that for the last day and half I've been harvesting everything in the Lavastorm and Everfrost harvesting areas and have gotten many, many figwarts but no ebon. And, of course, figwart is going for about 50 g on the brpler while ebon is 2 p or more.
Every time someone complains that certain rares are rarer than others, some one else explains to us ninnies that the RNG is node blind. Ok. So we need more ebon nodes. How can we get them? All I can do is clear the area of everything and then wait for the stuff to repop, in the same ratio it previously did, which leaves ebon more scarce than hen's teeth. Can't this be changed?

DominoDev wrote:

Bravo.

Domino, you make a fantastic argument.

(To be fair: I have not done this epic yet, because my crafter isn't 80 yet - BUT, I have read all about it and it seems fine to me, and I am very excited to get to 80 and do this quest. The rare part is a bit daunting, and I'll probably be really annoyed, but I can deal with that. I guess it also helps that I have a guild full of very nice people who I'm more than sure will help me out with the "community" part. I have to say that on the AB server, people seem really helpful a good deal of the time, and I can't even imagine asking someone to craft something for me and asking for anything more than fuel cost, raws and an optional tip. Maybe the other servers are full of jerks. =P )

Excuse you? Because you chose to have 9 crafters that means you worked harder then those who chose to have 1 or 2? Thats bull. Having more in game time over those people who say work more then you does NOT mean you worked harder at your craft.

I am with Domino on this one and will take that bet.. I have had no problem logging my crafters in for anyone who needs something made, even for strangers. Just because YOU do, doesn't mean the majority does also.

DominoDev wrote:

How does it test this, though? How is jumping into chat and asking for a certain crafter or doing a /who a test of your knowledge of the community? Which is what you would need to do to find a crafter to make the item for you unless you already had those crafters in your repertoire of people you knew.

Then there's the idea of testing your ability to work with others. How is this quest testing that? You add items to a box, they add items to a box, and you get your item. Do you have to do anything in tandem with the other person? No. Do you have to work together with the person, fighting durability losses and trying to inch out every bit of progress you can? No. You stand there while someone else does all the work and then you have your item. How can that conceivably be working with others?

As to the idea of there being quests like this in game so it's okay for this quest to be like this - why? I personally find it incredibly unfun when I'm boxed into having to do something one way. Anyone who's seen me post in the adventuring area knows I'm a strong advocate for multiple ways to accomplish the same or similar ends in regards to quests. So to see the mindset that I rail against constantly in regards to adventuring starting to be included in crafting is depressing and disheartening.

Gwyn:
You must be describing another game. I think that Domino has developed a strong series of quests that involves most if not all aspects of what crafting currently is in the game. The comments about fighting durability with another player and having essentially group encounters for crafting simply does not exist in the current game mechanics. I would be intriqued by such a system if it were put into place. As long as we are changing mechanics, I also believe that the way harvesting works in Vanguard is something that all games should adopt and include. Group participation in harvesting materials!!!
But with the current game mechanics available, Domino did a fantastic job. Huzzah!
(Domino: Since you are learning all the aspects of the development team though, get working on group crafting and group harvesting!! =P )