The Ydal and the Ewer of Sul'Dae

Directly, the New Tunarians don't have anything to do with the ewer or Anashti. They just lived in Takish Hiz before some of them moved out to build a city to worship Anashti.

I have no basis to support this thought, but is it possible that the Ewer was used by all the gods to create the races? It just strikes me as odd that only one of them would have the ability to create an artifact of such power where the others would not. It seems to be the preview of the Nameless.

Perhaps they all had access to this artifact? Perhaps each used it in a differnt way? Perhaps it was used in correctly by Inny?

Just throwing out some other concepts that flitted through my mind as I was catching up on all the posts on this thread.

Volerin wrote:

We know that Brell Serilis used his magical Clay of Cosgrove to create the races that worship him. Dwarves, Gnomes, Roekillik, Ratonga, Burynai, Boarfiend, etc. This gets mentioned quite often surrounding the lore of those races.

Is it possible that the Ewer was a relic from one of the four gods (Pingyuan Diqu, Paixao, Zou Kunnen, and Aniquilacion) that Theer destroyed in the times before his banishment? Perhaps without their influence the properties of the Ewer became flawed, shifted from giving life to giving unlife. Much later, Innoruuk uses the Ewer to create the Ydal, unintentionally giving them a form of unlife as a result. Anashti could have seen the results of using the Ewer on the Ydal and decided to use it for her unlife goals as well, resulting in her banishment (with Innoruuk, unlife was an accident since he didn't know of the flaw... with Anashti, it was intentional, thus the banishment). Just a shot in the dark.

Iskandar wrote:

possible.. though by Anashti's own words he's slain alot more then just 4 old gods.

Yeah, those are just the only four we can directly confirm... and I may be wrong, but I have a suspicion that the Devs wouldn't have given us that much info on them (the Theer fight would work just the same if the runes had generic names, or no names at all) if there wasn't some role for them to play.
That's what made me think one or more of them may be involved in this somehow... either as creators of the Ewer, guardians of it, or maybe they were simply bitter enough when they saw Theer coming that they decided to curse it just to spite the rest of the Pantheon. I know that if I were a god and I saw the executioner coming for me, I would NOT go down quietly, and I'd sure as heck try not to go down alone!

Hmm.. Come to think of it, what if THOSE 4 GODS were the ones who imprisoned him? If you guys remember, it took the four most powerful dragons in the claws of Veeshan to imprison the sleeper in his statis. Seeing as how the runes were still there and destroying them not only increases his power but unleashes the true form of Roehn Theer.. that they weren't slain gods at all. He probably talks down upon their efforts, but I would be willing to bet it's the same thing.

Our current pantheon seems weak compared to what would be required to subdue the godslayer. Perhaps those four gods predated even the elemental gods and was the first attempt by the nameless at creating a pantheon. It obviously didn't work out and the nameless felt a need to intervene, creating Roehn Theer. The four gods banish theer to the void and turn themselves into runes of power to restrain him, linking their fates together.

Just doesn't make sense that every god Roehn Theer kills remains powerfully intact and restricting of his power. If anything, he should absorb the power of his slain enemies. I don't see a situation that would make sense for Theer to just leave these runes laying around that, if killed, make him stronger.

Maergoth wrote:

You're right, that doesn't make sense, but there are other instances of powerful beings in game doing some strange/stupid things like that. Like the shrine in Trakanon's chamber. It's sole purpose involves negating his powers. Why would he keep something like that in there?!?

Seems like there are just 4 forgotten gods restraining him in the form of runes. Destroying them unleashes some of his power, eventually restoring him to his complete former glory. Dead gods would have no influence on that.

I don't think he specifies that he killed them, just that they were forgotten. Would make sense to me if they just all sacrificed themselves to restrain Theer.

Or perhaps they are there because the void is where gods slain by Theer go? It seems to me that that would be a cruel joke, if the spirit/essence/whatever of those/some of those you have slain are just waiting to subdue you in what passes for an afterlife after your defeat

For the sake of posterity, here is the quest dialogue that pertains to the Ewer's part in House D'Morte and how the Ewer came to be in the Silent City.
Enjoy!
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You say, “Hail, The Ancille of D’Morte”
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “Who has called me from the bells of Deathtoll? “
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Spirit, what is your name?”
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “I have no name. Long ago I cast aside such things. Sworn to the House of D’Morte I was. Given a new life as an eternal servant to my master, Malkonis.”
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “You are the Ancille of D’Morte! “
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “I am she, the handmaiden to the immortal master Malkonis. I await his calling within the gray of Ethernere.”
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Where can I find Malkonis D’Morte? “
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “My master is not to be found by the likes of you. “
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “I seek the Ewer of Sul’Dae. Malkonis can help me find it.”
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “You seek the decanter of the Fyr’Un, the origin of undeath, the life giver of the D’Mortes. “
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “The ewer created the D’Morte family? “
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “The D’Mortes existed within the gates of Neriak long before they were graced with the presence of the Ewer of Sul’Dae. In their research of such an artifact of power they unleashed the gift of undeath to their bloodline. They became immortal.”
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Did they share their gift with others of their kind? “
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “The gift varies to those that are bestowed, but all are immortal in undeath. Such a gift the Teir’Dal empire was not ready for. The D’Morte house hid their secret, but eventually their ilk would learn and hunt them down, driving them from the empire of the Teir’Dal.”
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Why would Malkonis give the ewer to the Godking? “
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “The Godking pays homage to the lost goddess Anashti Sul, the power that created the Ewer of Sul’Dae. Such an artifact is highly desired by the Godking as well as the few others that know of the forgotten past. In return for safe haven from hunting ilk the ewer exchanged hands.”
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “You mentioned others that seek the ewer. Who are these others?”
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “You are an ‘other’ and those that wish to destroy the source of the Fyr’Un. Then there are those that have seen the ewer long before the Dead in Neriak procured such a prize. Beware those of ages lost. “
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “I wish to preserve the ewer. Tell me where it is…please. “
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “No. You wish to exchange the ewer for riches. You have no respect for it. But if you wish to face the ewer and its current owner then seek my master, Malkonis, he will help you on your way. “
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “That’s what I asked for! Where can I find him? “
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “As I said, you cannot find him. He will find you. Go and seek the Statue Court. Seek the ruins of the fallen behemoth in the Statue Court and my master shall come to you. Our words are at an end. I await my return the Ethernere, to the sweet song of the Deathtoll, sweet, sweet song.”
You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Farewell, Ancille of D’Morte.”
You say, “Hail, The Ancille of D’Morte”
the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “Can you hear the bells of the Deathtoll? Can you hear them ringing for us?”

Maergoth wrote:

I find this theory to be very plausible.

Maergoth wrote:

Watch your tongue, or you might find Rallos Zek's axe cleaving it, and you, in two.

the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “You are an ‘other’ and those that wish to destroy the source of the Fyr’Un. Then there are those that have seen the ewer long before the Dead in Neriak procured such a prize. Beware those of ages lost. “
I think this line here refers to Mayong Mistmoore, as you meet an emissary of Mistmoore in the Peacock Club timeline, and it is well known that Mayong dislikes the D'Morte clan and considers them less than he and his own vampiric bloodline.

Wilin wrote:

We also have word from Jindrack:
Anashti Sul, the original Prime Healer, was sentenced to non-existence by the other gods when she unwittingly released undeath upon the inhabitants of early Norrath. Rodcet Nife would be later appointed to take her place.
There's three things I'd like to note about that quote:
1) While it spells out the reason for her banishment, it says nothing about the creation of the Ewer. Which means the Ewer could have existed in the planar realms or on other worlds for ages without end prior to Anashti Sul's banishment.
2) Her punishment was for releasing undeath, not creating it. So it's possible undeath (like the Ewer?) existed on other worlds or planar realms (like Mystmyr?), and the Norrathian pantheon either didn't care about those other places or couldn't do anything about them, if they had no following/influence in those other places.
3) She didn't do it on purpose. Now, whether she originallly created undeath on purpose is still debateable, but she didn't intend to bring it here. It's also possible that the Ewer was used successfully to give immortality in other places, and something about bringing its waters to Norrath (bad reaction to ambient magics, it'd only previously been used in planar realms and doesn't work in the mortal realm, sabotage from someone else) resulted in that strange mockery of immortality known as unlife.
I bring those up because I'm seeing a lot of mentions that she created undeath on purpose, and I haven't seen any quoted sources. I know that now her followers consider it her ultimate gift, but that always struck me as an "Oops! That's not what I... oh hey, that's pretty neat!" thing. I'm also seeing mention that she immediately used it on her followers, and was immediately punished for it - again, without any quoted references.
Given this, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if she created this thing - maybe with the help of other gods (Inny?) - and the first test cases worked out fine; or at least seemed to. The Ydal could well have been one of those first cases.. Given the quote of the Fyr'Un running through the celestial realms and the Ewer being its source, Innoruuk might not have even needed to borrow the Ewer to get the water needed to create the Ydal. Seeing such successes as an actual race created from her gift (and the fatal flaw either not yet manifested or purposefully hidden), Anashti could then give out the blessing to those on the mortal realm with high expectations - and unexpected results.
Or heck, her "releasing" undeath on Norrath could have been Innoruuk putting the Ydal there, and when they start sucking blood, he pointed at Anashti and started yelling, "It's her fault! She tainted my creations!"
Then again, I remain a firm believer in the "Norrath before Norrath" theory - the idea that Norrath was populated before the First Brood, got destroyed in some cataclysm that made it uninhabitable for anything not immortal (and probably not pleasant for those survivors that were), and was basically left for dead by the first pantheon (or what remained of them). Veeshan came along later, thought "Hey, I can do something with this," and started terraforming - at which point the other gods took interest. We know the Ydal were created in Hate, but not if that was also where they died; we know there were gods we've never heard of before ours, including the first God of Pestillence and at least 4 others; and we know there was a time when the mortals lived in terror of their gods, which to the best of our knowledge could maybe be applied to the 1st Rallosian War - which was only fear of one god and his forces, and didn't involve the other gods until the Rallosians hit the planes, so doesn't really match either.