The Ydal and the Ewer of Sul'Dae

Gungo wrote:

Except that the writeup on each Ydal Talisman says, “The dark elves would be spawned from dark ancient rituals cast upon the product of a single drop of Innoruuk’s blood, poured from the Ewer of Sul’Dae.” This states that the Ewer existed before the Ydal were first created… hence the added speculation.

Eisfyre@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I guess I am assuming before the Ydal became Darkelves through the ritual they were normal elves and didnt just sprout like broccolli out fo the ground. Hence they likely could of existed within the planes themselves, but mor ethen likely either mayong is mispoken or misquoted when he claimed to exist BEFORE the first brood was deposited. He likely meant he was there when the first brood was on norrath. Where does that quote come from? We must remember not every book found on norrath is expected to be 100% accurate.

Gungo wrote:

The quote comes from battle actually iirc from EQ1. When he says it is during one of the text - chat box phrases as adventurers battle him I'll try to find the it on the EQ1 lore boards where they mention it. And Gung you still could be right about the Ydal pre-dating Norraths first brood of dragons, we dont really have an idea when Anashti created the Ewer even though she had followers on Norrath later, whos to say she didnt have others on other worlds previously?


/perhaps.
Mayong says at the end of the Fate of Norrath quest that all our salvation was here on this backwater rock (paraphrasing mind you) in this squamate of wyrms.
I think he plans to raise an army to take on Veeshans dragons not just here but through the Plane of Sky and other planets (we know other planets have Draconian type races living on them if we take the eq1 expac into effect). My money is that Veeshan's dragons were so powerfull through the other reaches of space and the Plane of Sky that no other gods creations could flourish before the dragons wiped them out.
It may be why the Xulous were so significant. They were the first to stand against the dragons but a great disease wiped them out. Perhaps when they say Veeshan struck Norrath "In her Arrogance" was because Norrath was out of reach of her control and Brell saw this and told others to come plant their children to give them a fighting chance. It may be why the elven race of Norrath was significant enough to be called the 1st race to defeat Veeshan's children. This may be why Rallos was allowed to be in on the 1st set of gods as a neutral so they could learn to battle and perhaps give their creations a chance.
Maybe we're on this backwater rock is fermenting until were ready to take on the dangers of a larger draconic force. Or the single most dangerous one. Perhaps thats what the 2 different Doomsday clocks mean. 1 shows the events leading to Kerafyrms ascension to godhood and/or total power. The other is the rise of Mayongs legions (to stop him or what-have you). The Shissar saw this while plane walking and realized enough to put it down into their calendar.

The timeline confusions seem to stem from the use of the Ewer. Mayong supposedly existed before the gods inhabited Norrath, Anashti supposedly made the ewer as a gift to her people, and her people supposedly occupied Norrath before recieving that gift.

However. We make a HEAVY assumption that Anashti was banished for her interactions with Ahket Aken, or the Silent City.

This is falsely assumed.
This city was born from the words of an ancient dal, a prophet of the chants of oblivion. How he came to know the shadow of nonexistent powers is unknown, but know he did.
- The Tale of Ahket Aken

The city was founded by someone who followed a banished, forgotten god. She was banished due to actions involving a race much older than Silent city. Silent City was founded PRIOR to the Elddar elves getting extinguished

Once in days long passed, days before the green turned to sand, there was a city of secrets.

SO, by this we conclude that the city was built by an elf who worshipped a banished god, it's impossible that she was banished for unleashing undeath on a people that worship an already banished god.
What race predated the elddar elves? None on Norrath.

Maergoth wrote:

You know, this right here makes me feel kinda silly. I just did part of this quest the other day, and of course, didn't read it close enough to realize what you're pointing out. Nice catch Maer

I just can't place a time on the Jal`Raeth ARRIVAL to the Dead hills, or when their banishment supposedly took place. Taking the only information we have, they still occupied EQOA's dead hills.. which was around the age of Enlightenment, long after the Ethernauts fended off the first invasion just before The Lost Age.

This would seem impossible, because the race would have to be banished much prior to the ethernaut defense, giving time for revenge and plotting to come to fruition.
We know the Jal`Raeth ARE the shadowed men, because a shadowed man bearing the title "Sul`Raeth" resides in Stonebrunt supporting Anashti Sul. It's safe to assume that he's not the only one, and that the Jal`Raeth race at least in part supports her. The question is, when did that support occur and under what circumstances.
They either stumbled across her in their dabbles in necromancy (before she was banished, after?), or they teamed up with her in the void. To suffer the fate she did, I assume they found her AFTER she was banished and did something stupid to try and either replicate her actions or to free her from the void. The timelines still don't make sense though, and we have ZERO CLUE how the elves learned about her if indeed her actions took place prior to Norrath being populated by elves, which is an unescapable truth at this point.
We'd have to assume the Jal`Raeth came here FIRST, BRINGING knowledge of her and leaving it for Elves to find later. We'd have to assume that some just "stuck around" through their entire race being banished.

Still no idea when Theer or Anashti's banishment occured.
Still no idea how the elves learned of Anashti.
Still no idea when the Jal`Raeth got here or what they did to get "mostly" banished.
Still no idea when the ewer was used, either time.

Answers people, come on :/ and if someone screwed up with this timeline somewhere, a dev should try and correct it ASAP, retcon > nonsense

Maergoth wrote:

Maergoth wrote:

Anashti was banished before the silent city was founded. The elves of that city came to worship an unknown god. This city was founded AFTER Takish. But what we don't know is in what age Ahket Aken was founded. We do know when it fell, and unfortunately that is the only time refrence we have in all of these stories. Though, you might assume that the same king that founded the city is the same king that ruled over it when it fell so your talking about a period of a few thousand years at most...
Anashti didn't need to be banised before elves existed. She needed to be banisedh before Ahket Aken was founded. Probably a whole age before that so nobody would remember Anashti's name, though it is anyone's guess how her name was forgotten in the first place. Most likely by divine intervention, though which god has that ability is anyone's guess. If any diety could do this, couldn't they also make people forget how to enter the planes as well? This seems to be a really unbelievalbe part of the lore to be perfectly honest.

Meirril wrote:

Ahhh. Except they did. And the guy who they imprisoned and the city they destroyed came back to haunt them. I always wondered back in EQ1, why Zebuxorruk is so similar to Inny's name.

Maybe Mayong wasn't the only disgruntled member of the Plane of Hate.

ilin wrote:

This quote, in the manner it was phrased; implies that there are 2 Ewers. What is the "Great Ewer" vs. what we know of the "Ewer of Sul'Dae"? Is the "Ewer of Sul'Dae" the Ewer of Life? or is it the "Great Ewer" referenced in the text above? It would seem the "Great Ewer" would be the Ewer of Life as the text references "the very vessel that sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds".
Perhaps we are mixing the Ewers up? The Ewer of Life would by definition have to exist long before the Ewer of Sul'Dae right? And if so, would be available to any god who knew where to look for it.
I just thought it worth mentioning. If I missed something in the lore, please be kind, still playing catch on the lore of the game.

The Great ewer IS the ewer of Sul'Dae as far as I know. And.. Anashti would have to be banished before the elves came around for MAYONG to "See the dragons arrive", or the Ewer wouldn't have become public property as we assume it did.

Volerin wrote:

It doesn't really. Why would they be told to drink from one ewer, then go drink from another instead? Sounds a lot more like great ewer is just a title for the Ewer of Sul'Dae, rather than a seperate object.

Meirril wrote:

I'll ask again, does anyone have a reference that points to the creation of the Ewer?


Or the event that actually lead to her banishment aside from the dialogue in the peacock series?
We've always assumed that the Sul'dal were so named due to their following of Anashti'Sul. So, her crimes of immortality were likely performed after she obtained a following on Norrath. Here is a reference for ya:
Lect'Zadh

The Godking Anuk is the founder of the City of Life, Ahket Aken. He is also the prophet of the lost Goddess of Life, Anashti Sul. Long ago did he discover her lost shrine within the Elddar Empire. Through her forgotten words he rose from the ranks of the Elddar Empire and cast free the Dal religions. He is the only known chosen prophet of Anashti Sul. He is the all powerful ruler of Ahket Aken and is the harbinger of the gift of Anashti Sul, the gift of undeath. The Godking Anuk resides in the Inner Temple of the royal districts of Ahket Aken.

That snip of text and ones like it are the only reference point we have. However, we can assume from that text from key phrases like "Chants of Oblivion", "Nonexistent Powers", "Lost shrine", "Forgotten words", and the "gift of undeath" that this occured after her initial interaction with a race and the banishment resulting thereof.
Sounds to me like Mr. Godking just tripped over a statue in a warehouse covered by a sheet and got obsessed with it, Anashti took notice from the void and and saw an opportunity to set in motion her freedom. She whispered to him her plans and his course of action and he followed through, renewing a faith in the forgotten god and keeping the ewer safe.

I strongly remember the lack of an immediate divine presence from the very start of the city but for the life of me I can't remember what lead me to think that. I was always under the impression that the whole city was based on the influence of a god none of them ever really interacted with, that the only one Anashti talked to or had any connection to whatsoever was the godking. The whole city was already mindless zombies to begin with to believe his word so blindly.

Imagine Planet of the Apes with all the silly monkeys worshipping the nuclear bomb. They had no clue the powers they were flirting with, they just found something and became fascinated with it.

OK, maybe if I commit to the boards where I'm thinking I can sort it out. Maybe get some more sounding off it, see where I'm off.

--Faceless creates universe, gods, and Roehn Theer.

--Gods beat up Theer, boot him into the Void, and snag his toys for safekeeping.
--Or perhaps stashed on Norrath, the battle may have taken place there.

--Anashti does something ill-advised and gets voted off the island herself.
--Custody of the Ewer uncertain. Possible candidates include stashed on Norrath at or near the later site of Silent City, or in Innoruuk's posession.

--Innoruuk uses the Ewer to create the Ydal.

--The impression is given that the 'flaw' was vampirism, and not intended...perhaps what Anashti did tainted it?

--Ydal society undergoes catastrophic collapse. Details uncertain at this time.

--Mayong Mistmoore, the last (or one of the last) survivors, may possibly escape to Norrath at this time.

--Exact timing is unknown, this sequence is largely conjecture.

--Veeshan arrives on Norrath.

--Gods react to Veeshan's spawn by creating the familiar races.

--Several possible reasons why. Was it to keep the Hands of Theer away from them? Was it because, as the site of Theer's defeat, it was 'sacred ground' of sorts? Or was the Ewer stashed here as well? I lean towards the latter...

--The Dal would be the Eddar are notably placed around the site of the shrine to Anashti that later becomes the heart of the Silent City...

--Eddar build empire in Tunaria. Eventually some of them rediscover the shrine.

--It isn't explicit, but the implication is that the Ewer is not present...but may be intended to be.

--Theory: The 'shrine' may have been the place the Ewer was stashed for safe-keeping, but 'borrowed' by Innoruuk for his own purposes at a later time.

--Ro scorches Tunaria, turning it into (eventually) the Desert of Ro.

--Perhaps to keep Norrathians from delving too deeply into things best left uncovered? If so, far too late...

--...because during this time, as it turns to desert, the first void invasion occurs. This is the time of the Ethernauts.

--Jal'Raeth are forced into the Void, circumstances uncertain.

--Given their lack of participation noted in the Ethernaut tales, it is presumed to take place some time after.

--Ewer is brought or returned to the Silent City by a D'Morte.

--Whether this takes place before, after, or contemporaneous to the Jal'Raeth's banishment is unknown.

--The relatively subtle Jal'Raeth establish the Obelisks of Lost Souls and (later?) Blight.

--It is assumed the anchors in Ykesha survived from the first invasion.

--The Jal'Raeth also appear responsible for the infiltration campaign in progress as the Age of Destiny opens.

--Events of Peacock Club timeline. Ewer is broken.

--Ewer remains are taken to Neriak and restored, though possibly not to original specs.

--Ewer reclaimed and returned to Silent City by followers of Anashti in the wake of the second invasion, paving the way for her release from the Void.


I've probably got at least a dozen things wrong or confused. Have at...

Anaogi@Mistmoore wrote:

1) Nameless creates universe, not cazic thule.
2) unknown where to put Theer in the timeline. Considering that his weapons both appear in Norrath, and on the same continent and appear in the same age (blood) there is a very good argument that either a vault was raided that contained both or that Theer was banished during the age of blood on Norrath. Either way, why would the gods of Norrath bring these weapons here if the deed wasn't performed here? Unless the weapons were stolen by the Shissar in their planar raids? Then how did they find their way to Antonica? Possibly the same way the rune staff bearing planar runes found its way into an underwater city? The kedge somehow gained planar artifacts possibly stolen by the Shissar? Honestly, what is the origin of the runes in the staff that we use for the TSO story line? I'm betting the staff contains the planar runes the Shissar used to build their calendar.
3) interesting quote above. Let'Zadh found and abandoned temple to Anashti'sul. Doesn't that imply that Anashti'sul had worshipers on Norrath to abandon said temple? Or was an entire temple to a non-existant diety brought to Norrath along with the Ewer? All in all, this is actually good evidence that it happens after Veeshan/rest of the races are deposited.
4) Ewer is the source of undeath. Using it to create a race...I'm suprised they didn't start off as undead. Credit to where credit is due Innoruuk is a cleaver guy. But using the artifact probably implanted the seeds of Vampirism and Inny didn't have any clue what was going on until it was too late. Very typical of him too.
5) Perty much accurate. Probably post-dragon for reasons above.
6) Note: Veeshan DISCOVERS Norrath. Brell discovers and lets other dieties in on the discovery after Veeshan has declaired Norrath her territory. Where the other dieties were before Norrath? No idea. Maybe we'll find out when the devs run out of material?
7) See answer above
8) Actually the implication is the Ewer *is* present otherwise the residence of Ahket Aken couldn't of used the ewer to turn themselves into undead in an attempt to beat the Ro curse.
9) Huh? Actually the void forces in several places had shadowmen infiltrators amongst the natives. Shadowmen = Jal'Raeth. Plenty of evidence of them amongst the Ethernaught stories. Last known sightings of the 6 armed guys was during EQOA which is 500 years before EQ1, which is before Ro's curse.
10) Wasn't this done while Ahket Aken was still a city of the living? Back during the King's time? Or was this done after the fall of the silent city? I'm fuzzy on this.
11) Obelisk of Lost Souls and assumedly other obelisks were created in the 500 years between EQ1 and EQ2, during the age of cataclysms. The anchors in Moors of Ykesha most certainly wern't around during EQ1 as the area was heavly travled and would of been discovered.
12, 13, 14) recent history.
12)

The obelisks were supposedly created long before then, according to some text from a dragon that says he watched them abduct some dragons over in velious before EQ1

The Elddar Forest had already been turned to sand in EQoA.

Thanks for the replies--can't believe I confused Faceless and Nameless...d'oh!

Theory from what's posted...perhaps the point behind the Obelisks was to find the Ewer? Since that was the key to Anashti Sul's return (as we now know), finding that would have been her first priority...of course, after the setbacks of the first invasion, they probably hid until the Cataclysm, in order to wait and lay the groundwork for a more successful attempt.
And bear in mind, if the point of the invasion was for Anashti Sul and Roehn Theer to get free of the Void...they were ultimately quite successful! Though not with the consequences either intended, to be certain...

Probably a really dumb question, but how do New Tunaria and it's inhabitants fit into all of this? I know the elves of NT suffer from vampirism, and the Desert of Ro before it's scorching was known as Tunaria, so there's a connection there as well (however tenuous).
This whole discussion is very fascinating to me even though I don't follow game lore too closely very often.