ratbast wrote: Cronyn just answered part of this in another thread Cronyn wrote: I would like to think that Bertoxxulous is a twisted vision of the Xulous king's corpses that had been rotting there in the Necropolis for centuries
Cronyn wrote: “Hmm… I do not feel the presence of Xul’Varien, but instead I sense this new being — Bertoxxulous, if I have heard correctly, who is evidently the new Lord of Pestilence. I will be watching that one carefully. However, I have a more pressing matter at hand, which is the one who replaced me, Rodcet Nife.†Does that mean that you think Anashti'Sul may have been banished after or with Xul'Varien? When she says 'hmm' is that her sensing bertoxxulous or wondering if xul'varien is here?
Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote: great idea. my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient. mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis. i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks) ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.
ratbast wrote: I dug out Trosts old design paper for the planes so we could see where it came from to see who would be responsible for recreating the god on his destruction and it seems that it would be Fennin Ro
With the exception of the newer ties to Kyle and some of the Theer pieces, this mosaic has already been pieced together on this forum years ago even pre-TSO by the old lore hounds. Most of them don't play anymore. I do, but I don't spend any time predicting storylines like I used to. I'm just glad to see that there are still some folks who are still drawn to the rich back story of Norrath. I confess though, I'd like to see more discussion on Age's End as we draw nearer to it.
Wilin wrote: the old threads were definitely useful in checking some of the backstory particularly on the eq1 boards in relation to the jal'raeth and xulous - although I did notice quite a lot of people refering to the xulous as not from antonica so i did my best here to reference all my sources so you could see you were looking at the facts rather than conjecture although i'm not saying that what certain npcs and books in game aren't a lie! take for example the thread at the moment about the prisoner in the plane of justice - you could say that he, being someone held up in the plane of justice for crimes his race cannot feel fit to judge, speaks also of an untrustworthy troll who betrayed him - both of the sources in those quotes are unreliable from an investigators perspective!
Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote: Time was reversed just before we invaded the Plane of Time, not the entire planes of power entirely.
ratbast wrote: I think your making an awful lot of totally unfounded assumptions regarding the "rules" of deityhood, of which we really have never been given any information at all. Where did you get all of these ideas, anyway? They're certainly not from any existing Everquest lore that I am familiar with, and I've been playing EQ for 12 years.
The_Cheeseman wrote: i was not presenting assumptions/guesses as fact, just possibility. and its based on events and how things play out, instead of discretely comminicated rules. its based on the creation stories and events of history. i dont think unfounded is the right word either. there is a pattern of how things are done. higher order entities create lower order life. nameless->elemental gods->influence gods->races. the idea mortals can create deities is itself backwards. there are 3 known cases of mortals creating deity. 2 are ascension of sentient mortals. the 3rd in question here is unknown. saying it required a sentience is not unfounded. its following the known pattern for the process. (edit: also zek was replaced by triumvate consisting of sullon who was originally a mere mortal. so thats give rodcet process, bertox process, zeb process, and hounds of war--arguably all requiring sentience in recipe) All this to say i think bertox wasnt created out of thin air. if you dont like speculation, you probalby wont like anything i have to say. what is known is known. rehashing is boring. the only source of new facts is devs. not us. ofc i wont be able to discover a new fact. what i find fun is extrapolating trajectories from tidbits and trying to solve ruleset. based on your post i doubt you would have competing theories, just frustration i would go there. but there is a rich story of soul(or essence) permanence in everquest, which i have watched and paid attention to. the rough theories i have arrived at have 2 basic types of life. eternal, whose existence doesnt begin or end in this verse (flow of souls and all), and what i would call clone. clone life begin here as well as ending here, barring they dont magically get soul from pinochios japeto type procedure. its also possible that each plane has its own (local sub-verse) soul factory for clones, so clones can go to heaven with their creating deity after their normal lifespan, planar paradise, but not till yonder, just a heaven for their creating deity in their sub-verse. for an eternal sentience to be relegated to a subverse paradise would be hell. a complete failure to realize their potential to move on. eternal entities originate elsewhere in another verse and are destined to continue onward. my theory is that even the influence deities go till yonder(properly anthropomorphized), dont think elemental are so lucky tho, they are clone: a local fixture born of necessity (not properly anthropormophized). which is why kerafyrm killing zek wouldnt destroy universe (theer has done that multiple times), but killing an elemental deity would be like breaking a leg off a table, causing verse to collapse or explode/whatever. i know some planar creations are like hollow echoes, seen earth elemental in sundered frontier like that. they dont have a soul period. almost all planar entities (all planes except hero), including demigods that are flesh offspring of gods, are clone. they can be completely anihilated. norrathian heroes cannot be anihilated, only bodily destroyed and sent till yonder. where it gets murky for me is contrasting the nature of standard bodily offspring (typically demigods, as opposed to work of their hands) and ydal. ydal were truly "flesh and blood" of deity, and designed to house eternal souls passing thru this existence. they are an abomination of demigod and sentience. (my hunch is that bodily offspring demigods are not their own sentience, rather an essence fragment chipped off the deiteis own, and without soul.) so the hounds of war, being elevated mortals(atleast sullon), had their own sentience before becoming a triumvate, and fully vested as influence deity. so in my theory, aviaks in plane of air are clones, and soulless like amyg (limited edition print), valkyries, and many more. but if they successfully reproduce with a deity created mortal (standard hero race), can spawn a new sentient halfbreed race (hero plane instantiations being what we know as minotaurs etc, sentient, mortal, and can reproduce). extraplanar beings are kinda like fallen angels who cant procreate without their gods permission diluting their power. consider an aviak is a planar creature, from air. yet they do not qualify as an elemental. not for LnL, not for anything. but they are from plane of air? imo aviaks we know today in hero plane are halfbreeds (sentient, mortal, can reproduce) unlike planar aviaks who are clone. id like to hear more lore about how influence deities created their races, to speculate about what went wrong with ydal. the idea of using a single drop of blood sounds more like a single demigod creation or limited edition clone race creation such as amyg. i think themes of controlled/gated reproduction are great for storytelling. its such a powerful feature of life. powerhungry tyrants would love to take it from commoners, ie influence deities and their planar races and the law that exists in their realms. ofc tunare would tell them to multiply like jackrabbits. the creation themes are all about reproduction, its the whole study of the gods and their whole interest. brell being a sneaky bastage and doing it multiple times. gods are happy to see their creations proliferate on norrath, but i dont think thats par for their home plane. they gotta be the boss and run things, run a tight ship. thus the limited edition influence-planar races. my theories make the norrathian universe look elegant to me and explain many of the events. it also really opens up opportunities for new playable races (amyg halfbreed).
I can respect the desire to speculate, but I would urge you to clearly denote your speculation as such. There is a fine line between speculation and fanfiction, and if you are familiar with such past examples such as the "Prophecy of Trakanon" those kinds of stories can cause significant confusion in lore discussions, sometimes for years.
Cusashorn wrote: Except it did (and i did say sort of) *Edit for quote from prophecy* The End of an Age Now we sit in the final hour awaiting the second war of the gods to come to pass. With the coming of the Warlord will lead to the fate of Trakanon and the ascencion of the fourth hero of prophecy. It is here the world will burn as the sleeper walks. I guess the guy who wrote Prophecy of Trakanon/EQRPG finally got his story in to the end game
Yeah, not to mention that was written during EQ1s beta, and just happens to mention places and mobs that none of us had heard of. It first floated around when we only had about 4 zones total to play in.
ratbast wrote: Wait! Dieties of Influence come into existance, they don't need a source. Case in point: while some gods of influence were created (like the Marr twins), a lot of them have no origin. Brell, Cazic, Innoruuk, Tunare, Veeshan and many others don't have "parents" and wern't "mortals" before they came into existance. They just *are*. The Nameless created the Elemental Dieties. The Elemental Dieties created the gods of influence...but not all of them. I belive the universe creates dieties to fill voids of power. Either some being is placed to accept that power, or the power creates a being to embody it. As new influences rise in power, so new Dieties of Influence are either placed or created. (such as Nightmares, Dreams and Insanity)
Meirril wrote: interesting idea. do you have any references to support that theory? i could never find any. from known creation stories i threw that theory out. there is a gnome archeologist theory that behemoths sprang into existance, like mana infused evolution. im unfamiliar with deities doing this, or any credible source. (archeologist speculations by flighty race about distant past might not be best testimony) i would attribute the 'just are' feeling to them being immortal sentience, originating outside this verse like heroes. possibly even having prestige(or notoriety) trailing them like "clouds of glory" from the previous reality. that foreknowledge trickling down from nameless to elemental gods & theer, then scraps to influence deities, and in some version to mortal races. i think the planes themselves create life, but just soulless clone versions. i imagine the planes as entities of their own, but they dont create their own ruler (imo). that implies a more active awareness with power to reject. if they did create their own ruler, why did tarrew marr make erolissi and mithaniel? that would be extremely activist on his part. elemental gods are known for noninterference and "passivism". (nightmare/dream/insanity) personally i wouldnt usually call demiplanes rulers 'gods of influence'. is pluto really a planet? they are demigods, and vassals to their master, that is not godlike. imo demiplanes can either be filled or not. at discretion of its jurisdictions master. its a subrealm they can place "magistrate" over or own themself at their whim. you know any case where demigod is not beholden to its base plane god? i think its an auxilliary room at the influence deities office. he can promote someone to rule that room or just maintain his absolute rulership of the entire building, either way. demigods have bosses to answer to. if you know of something that contradicts my theory let me know so i can start building a case to overturn it. 1 single case would have to be very strong to do that singlehandedly, but i collect smaller inconsistencies that start creating cracks too.
I wanted to share some of the information I came across while playing EQOA if its helpful to the discussion. Tal’Thex Apparently in the Dead Hills sits the city or Pagoda of Tal’Thex, a vault containing many of the dark arts held by the elves, or Dal. References to this can be seen in EQOA among a quest involving a ghost in Envar http://www.crypticsouls.ca/valkanith.htm , as well as in EQ2 via this lore here in Maj’Dul. http://loreofnorrath.wordpress.com/...ale-of-malahkt/ . This vault was pursued in EQOA by a being known as Sarek the Betrayer. All the lore on him, Geomancer’s Citadel, Geomancer’s Pass and the Anvil of Sarek can be found here. This also mentions the Jal’raeth as “gray beings†and refers to Envar. It’s pretty lengthy, but it does give a ton of insight into the Dead Hills and Lake Rathe areas, as well as the Ogres of the time. http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.as...TopicID=9481404 Envar Envar was a city that existed to the south of the Dead Hills. Apparently, it was near the city described as the Pagoda of Tal’Thex based on the previously mentioned lore. It may also be interesting to note one of the mobs in Envar was named Tal’Thir, and was a mummy (from my own experience in game). I’m implying this based on the aforementioned info, but I’m not sure if this is the truth. As described in the Sarek the Betrayer Lore, the Jal’Raeth lived in the tomb city of Envar. The scouting parties returned with stories of black sand coasts of the Deadhills. Many of the parties were decimated with but a handful from each returning. The survivors told stories of rolling hills along the black coasts peppered with crypts for miles. Undead roamed openly, killing any outsiders they came across by overwhelming them in sheer number of zombies and skeletons. The farthest of the search parties that tracked the path of Sarek's southern column believe they saw the Pagoda of Tal`Thex, a huge stone complex with a towering stone obelisk in the center. The complex was surrounded by legions of undead, and strange floating creatures. The ghosts and ghouls surrounding the hills were so thick the search parties couldn't get close enough to see the creatures outright but they were unknown, floating grey beings with runes circling their bodies. Not Ogre, and not elven, they could not press forward through more of the undead to learn more without suffering the loss of their units entirely Envar in EQOA had lots of undead and was surrounded by four towers. There were four entrances that each had a gargoyle in each entrance. The basements of Envar had nothing but Jal’Raeth and undead, and if you “ascended†to the top of the obelisks, you found a number of other Jal’raeth, as well as a special one known as the Prophet Envar, as shown below. Not much lore was ever given on him, but the questline did grant Wizards, Druids, and Necromancers an ability called Envaric Ascension, which would port parties to the top of Envar. http://www.crypticsouls.ca/envaric.htm . Other similar abilities to related quests for all three classes include another port to the Dead Hills called Astal Displacement (with a quest entirely in Envar), and a cure for all healers and necromancers called Envaric Salve. Jal’Raeth Incase this wasn’t made clear in any previous posts, the Jal’Raeth described in EQOA were a race of immortal beings who could not die. Because they were incapable of experiencing death itself, they performed experiments on creatures in attempts to understand death. Thus, they would constantly kill and reanimate beings in such attempts. As Cronyn stated, the Jal’raeth were a clan of shadow men. This would imply that the obelisk as described in Sarek’s lore was an obelisk of the shadowed men. Thus, Envar itself was this obelisk, considering this was the only one, and the Jal’Raeth are clearly described.
Continuing... Lxanvom and Berrox The stories of Remembrances Berrox and The Crypt of Lxanvom imply the Xulous were betrayed by Ultor to give rise to Bertoxxulous. We’ve discussed its possible that Bertoxxulous always existed, but its interesting to note he manifests in the tombs of the dead kings of the Xulous. We previously have established the Jal’Raeth cannot die, so it would seem that the Xulous cannot be the shadow men or the Jal’Raeth. Thus, these cities could potentially be other races, or the race of elves who live near the Pagoda of Tal’Thex. This could be why in Berrox, they are so intrigued by the obelisk that so recently appeared. Undeath As mentioned, and as Cronyn confirmed, Anashti doesn’t expect to sense Xul’varien, just muses he’s gone, and so is intrigued by this Bertoxxulous. As Bertoxxulous embraces necromancy and undeath, I wouldn’t expect Xul’varien to view it as such a negative either. It’s quite possible that Anashti and Xul’varien both introduced undeath to Norrath somehow, or played a joint part, and were BOTH banished as a result, potentially separately. Who knows why, but that could give reason why she notes Xul’varien’s absence. This is all speculation of course. Last Home and Bertoxxulous In EQOA, a plague began at one point with the introduction of the plane of disease. A series of quests were introduced, along with a portal in the Dead Hills to enter Last Home, or the Plane of Disease as known in EQOA, where the Springview Healers resided at the Springview Sanitarium. Elaboration on these guys were never given beyond the entrance quests. In the lore, it was stated that in one specific tomb was the dimensional rift weak enough for people to cross across the planes. It’s likely this is the tomb that Ultor brought the Xulous king. Rodcet Nife and Bertoxxulous Appearances Comparing with the Jal’Raeth or shadowmen, Rodcet and Bert look pretty similar in general… however, whether they are Xulous, Shadowmen, or if these are both remains a mystery. It’s interesting that Rodcet, as mentioned previously, questions if the Xulous brought their plague to Norrath. Furthermore, Bert carries the Xulous name in his own. This must be for a specific reason, and likely has some connection to this plague they brought with them, aside from the fact he destroyed them as a race. Name connections In addition, Xul’Varien shares the “Xul†in his name, where as Anashti has a “Sul†in her own. I’m willing to bet this was no mere coincidence, especially based on the fact that BOTH the God of Healing and God of Pestilence were replaced by individuals who look similar to the Jal’Raeth/Shadowmen. Finally, isn’t it odd that the obelisk in the Dead Hils region (Envar) has a prophet at the top named Envar, which sounds reminiscent of Xul’Varien? Likely no connection, but who knows. Looking at the base names of each diety: First, Anashti is very similar to the name Ashanti, which in hindi means unrest, disturbance, unquietly, which pretty well aligns with the undeath she brought upon Norrath. As for the name Varien, it’s similar to the Celtic translation “of the green hillâ€, but also means “changeable†in latin.Seems to fit what you say on the Theer raid encounter. ratbast wrote:
ratbast wrote: no life is 'enternal' on Norrath save perhaps lycans and vampires. just becuase you respawn doesn't mean your enternal. we mortals die, and we go to our to Ethernere, and then to wherever. you respawning is a game mechanic, not a lore one. the beings in the Planes are very much explained as heroes/creatures created by said deity. Paladins/Clerics of Mithaniel make up the soldiers of valor you see in his plane. dark elves make up a good bit of the minions in EQ1 Hate, and all the named in Eq2 hate save the sisters and Byzola (who was a minion of Fear that got trapped there) are DEs/vampiric. that's why Xegony's favored race, the Aviak, is all over her realm. why the plane of water is filled with sea life. the Demi-planes..your right. they don't HAVE to be seperate planes, but they are gods of infuence. Terris may not be as powerful as Cazic, but she is the utter master of her realm, and she can influence people through it with, or without, dad's consent. We've seen Morelle do things we know daddy wouldn't approve of. Helping Mithaniel, stealing his gift of creation (that led to barbs and frogloks that eventually rose to free Mithaniel from Terris/Cazic/Inny) if he wasn't a god of influence in his own right, Cazic coudl have just waved his hand and stopped him. Some of the Demigods were mortals. some were created by the gods. for example, Quellious and Cazic worked together to make Morelle and Terris, to divide the realm of Dreams between them. Morelle got the 'good' dreams, and Terris got nightmares. we know Envy was Lanys given godhood by inny. Insanity was Vazelle from Cazic. Serenity was Wu from Quellious. and when these planes were reabsorbed, we know that those dieties in charge could be spared, serving as powerful agents in the 'master' plane. Master Wu is the prime example of that. Though the evil races we're aware of, we know that Lanys, without a plane, is still 'existing' the SK epic tells us that, and the original puporse of the SK epic (Until players rework it) was to empower Layns with every kill to grant her strength ot manifest herself/her realm again despite Inny. We know that Rallos is bested by Tallon/Vallon/Sullon in combat and outright killed. demi-gods as they maybe, they are still gods, and even Rallos can't just flat out unmake them...even in his own Plane. He took Sullon and made her a 'demi-god' after she nearly kicked his rear as a mortal. and she did kick his rear as a demigod. the minions that you fight in PoW are not souless clones of the plane. they are heroes. even the animals are not mindless things. Rallos worshippers that serve him in War after thier mortal deaths. the Ring war is Heaven for the souls of the Kromzek/Kromrif....hell for the Coldain. even though Brell says they must endure it so that the spirits of the giants don't overrun Thurgadin. While the gods can reabsorb the Demi-planes, and thus negate thier 'offsprings' power...it seems like reabsorbing a plane is a lot of work and effort on thier part, and not something they can do just on a whim. and also not something that thier 'offspring' can't counter. (the quests during the Heroe's Festival point very highly that it's Morelle Thule we're helping, even though his plane is believed to have been absorbed/see Lanys example as well) they have to have a serious threat to thier own realm to take back a 'lesser' one into the fold...and even then it's not something that they can do say, mid battle. it takes too much effort/concentration. (again, this is something Rallos would have done against his kids at the first hint of being in a losing fight) as there are several deities that would probably have gotten taken out by this method already if it was so simply as 'give that back'. if Fennin coudl revoke Soluesk Ro's deityhood I'm sure he would have for that little stunt with the Dresolisk stone. and I bet Cazic would have with Morelle the second he attempted to thwart his plans for Mithaniel. and I think part of that misconception is the fact they are called 'Demi-gods' and 'Demi-planes' when they should probably just be 'Sub-planes' and 'Sub-deities'. No less Gods, just ruling a carved out 'portion' of a greater plane. They also stated in Eq2, that even us mortals killing the gods in thier own realms didn't destory them. we merely destroyed thier manifestations. So it seems only another god can truly kill one of thier own, or Theer with his twin swords. So I don't think the Elemental Gods have anything to fear, and are also not 'clones' or souless. they have emotion, desires, devices all thier own. Fennin is not called a Tyrant for sake of a neat title. he is that egostisital and sociopathic when it comes to Fire and all things derived of it that are under his 'realm'. Each member of the Rathe Council has it's own thoughts and such, or there woudl be no need for 12 of them. Xegony takes great joy in all flying creatures and the air itself. and offers her blessings and the gift of flight to those races, creatures, and people she deems worthy. there are several creatures in Norrath that only fly becuase she has given them her blessing to do so. (you learn that in the fae/arasai flight quest) I think if say, Fennin were to be destroyed...it wouldn't be like cutting off a table leg. in fact there's no evidence to say that Theer wasn't capable of taking one of them out if he saw a need to. I think if Fennin was destroyed..someone like Soluesk Ro, or Druzzil, or Varig would simply 'ascend' to take his place. Much like when Rallos was destroyed..his kids divided his power/realm between them and became the Triumverate of War. though out of the elementals, only 2 have created offspring that we know of. Fennin begat Soulsek, and we know Tarew begat Mithaniel and Erollisi. we don;t know if the Rathe or Xegony had/have any diety offspring...but for all we know they may have. some god we know about but havent seen. like Thoxule Paells or Torvonnlius. (Lust and Greed respectively) or heck for all we know Brell is a son of the Rathe. or Veeshaan a daughter to Xegony.
