Bongo-- the reason why guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands out-dps us with autoattack ranged attacks is due to their double attack AAs. For every bow attack you are doing, they are doing 2 attacks. And if they have procs applied, if one doesn't go off on the first attack, it has a chance to go off on the second attack. Our AA to have a chance to crit our bow attacks doesn't come close to making up the difference. So guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands simply smoke us in ranged dps (autoattack). For that matter, given the rather puny damage on most of our ranged CAs, unless sniper shot or rain of arrows CAs are available, they would out-dps us even if we counted our ranged CA damage. Now can I point to a thread where a dev said this? Of course not. I think SoE is oblivious to the issue. This all goes into the mix as to why Rangers are currently out-dps'd by so many so-called tier-2 and tier-3 classes in raid environments. If a ranger only solos or groups, then issues such as this are invisible since these classes tend to perform their more customary roles. In a raid environment, however, these classes can often perform a dps role (such as a non-tanking berserker) and the weaknesses of ranger dps becomes apparent.
Does the Rogue double attack AA work with ranged weapons? Are you suggesting that my Brigand using ranged auto-attack will out-dps a Ranger who is using ranged CAs? I'd also take this opportunity to point out that Swashbucklers gain a little more from double attack than Brigands as they have additional procs that can be triggered from a double attack. I'd hope that you'd not assume both Rogues are the same any more than you'd assume both Predators are the same.
If my Brigand can deliver more ranged damage than a similarly pitched Ranger under any circumstances at all, then I'm gobsmacked and it needs addressed as a matter of priority. It shouldn't be possible in any way, shape or form. Have you whitnessed this happening? Or is this theory of how the numbers might stack up?... To get the double attack and reliable crits to work the way you describe requires heavy investment in two different trees.... I'm dubious not simply to nock you; simply that I'm finding it difficult to get my head around such a rediculous notion of a circumstance.
I witness it every night. Your crit% chance AA is melee only. I didn't mention that AA since it wasn't relevant to my post. Your double attack AA that allows double attack on both melee and ranged attacks is level 4 and you can easily put 8 points into it without sacrificing much on other AA progression (i.e., you can still have traumatic swipe). Here's an example: You and a ranger auto attack with a bow that has a 6 second delay. You each do 1500 pts of "base" damage with your attack. Now assume the ranger has a 66% chance to crit. Assuming the ranger crits, as a rough outcome, the crit will result in a 33% increase in damage so the ranger's attack will actually do 2000 damage overall. This would equate to 2000/6 second = 333 dps But the rogue has a 66% chance to double attack and his attacks each do 1500 damage so he does 3000 damage overall. Bear in mind, the rogue also has a chance to crit on each of those attacks (although probably at a much lower rate than the ranger). Without counting a posible crit, the rogue did 3000/6 seconds = 500 dps. The rogue outdid the ranger by 166 dps or by 50%. Add haste to the equation. Each class benefits the same. Typically on raids players are maxed out on haste. Assuming for the sake of argument that the bow attack did the same damage as before, the ranger does 666 dps and the rogue does 1000 dps. The rogue out damages by the same 50% but the difference in dps is now 334 dps. Add dps modifiers to the equation in addition to haste from the previous example. If the ranger has a 20% dps increase buff placed on him by another class, then the ranger now did in 6 seconds 666 x 120% = 800 dps. The rogue with the same dps increase buff on him will do 1000 x 120% = 1200 dps over the same 6 second period. The difference is still 50% but the rogue is out-dpsing the ranger by 400 dps. Now add procs to the equation. The ranger gets a self-proc. The rogue may not. Otherwise, the chance to proc is the same for both characters except that the rogue gets a chance to proc on each double attack bow shot...the ranger does not (the rogue only procs on the second shot an applied proc that didn't proc on the first shot...but this is still "two bites of the apple"). So give the ranger 900 damage from his self proc over the 6 second period and 300 damage from applied procs. And give the rogue 0 damage from a self-proc but 450 damage from applied procs during the 6 seconds. The ranger now did 800 + (1200/6) = 1000 dps and the rogue did 1200 + (450/6) = 1266 dps. The above numbers are notional but representative. Those are the basic mechanics. And I didn't even count crits on the rogue. Or self dps and self proc modifiers on other classes. Those are the basic mechanics as to why swashbucklers/brigands and berzerkers can out-dps rangers with ranged attack. Play with the numbers all you want...you can't escape the difference that double attack makes. edit: typo Message Edited by Balerius on 06-14-2006 03:51 AM
I think that with all these changes it makes it more fun. It sucks to have to work hard to become a threat on the dps ladder but thats what games are suppose to be...a challenge. Sometimes it gets dull and boring, like now but that is why they are always adding content. Also this game i about interacting with other people. Game On.
I have always played a Ranger. Even in games that had no specific Ranger class, I have shaped my character into whatever is closest to the Ranger archetype. EQ2 is a terrific game, ( I honestly cannot point to any that is it's equal, much less, it's better). I have played since the opening day of EQLive. I would whole-heartedly recommend this game to anyone. And yet: I am now spending 80% of my time in DnL, (Dark and Light); perhaps the worst prepared and implimented game I have ever encountered, (and I have played them all). Bug ridden, under-staffed, barely playable, (yet absolutely HUGE); erratically patched, subject to hackers, frustratingly under-developed. Absolutely inferior to EQ2 in every way. Why?!! I don't really know. Masochistic? EQ burnout? Personal character flaw? I don't really know. Something has gone out of the game for me. I still keep my account active, I still play my Ranger a couple of times per week, but it just seems hollow, scripted, formulized. I am a Ranger, but I don't feel like one. All the various classes are being homoginized. (I suspect--and have stated before--because of PvP; though I am a proponent of PvP). I don't really care about DPS. I don't really care about raiding. I play solo. I always have, and I (most likely), always will. Why am I leaving a better game for a worse game? I don't know, other than to say that my time in Norrath, seems scripted and contrived. Luck in battle, until our paths should cross again. Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on 06-14-2006 10:13 AM
One thing I forgot to point out. In case anyone wants to question my initial assumption where the ranger in the above example crits his ranged attack and the rogue does a double attack....don't go there. The ranger with 8 points in his % crit chance AA gets a 22.4% increased chance to crit. Meanwhile, a rogue with 8 points in his % double attack chance AA receives a 66% chance to double attack. It's far more likely that a rogue will double attack than it is likely that a ranger will crit his ranged attack. So, if anything, the above analysis is skewed in favor of the ranger.
Yes our aa's are lacking, but I am STILL hoping that our new abilities in NOV will make up for it. They are doing class specific lines, maybe they will do them right.
Dont mistake people complaining about the class as us wanting rangers to be easy dps. Bottom line is the game mechanics are not there for rangers to be top DPS. I'd even accept this but more than the DPS, the joy of playing a ranger seems to be rapidly disapearing due to a series of nerfs that have nothing to do with our class or ruleset.
I dunno, I'm not even 50 yet (just got 41 the other night), so I can't speak on how it is in the so-called "end-game." The one thing that will keep me coming back every night, no matter what SOE does to the ranger class, is this: groups. As long as I can find groups, even nominally proficient pick-up groups, I'll be okay. That's why I play, really. I just love the group dynamic. Heh, even bad group dynamics--gives me something to talk about the next day, eh? So, as long as I can find a group, I won't be leaving anytime soon. Besides, how could I possibly leave when there are excellent (albeit furry) folks like Kaeros to keep me from taking myself too seriously? Oh, one other thing -- I really enjoy doing Heritage Quests, and they're a lot of fun to do as a ranger. Speaking of HQs, I should take this opportunity to thank the people who play brigands on Antonia Bayle. For two HQs (Hadden's Earring and PGT), it was a brigand each time who answered my call to help kill the final mob. Brigands FTW! Jowi
thanks for looking those up for me. now that you mention the slow weapons to increase proc chance i do remember reading that back when they were nerfing it. I'll have to read the other post tomorrow as i'm leaving work in 10 minutes.
Having said what I said, earlier in this post, I do believe the following is a bit of a joke. Rogue: Walk the Plank: Added root effect to Hold Direction. - Rogue: Avast Ye: Increased damage. - Rogue: Abilities that have an empty offhand requirement also check that the primary weapon is not 2-handed. - Rogue: Pick Pocket: Reduced Recovery time to 0.25 seconds. Increased coin rewards - Swashbuckler: Disarming Grin: Increased recast timer to 60s from 30s. Reduced Power cost. - Swashbuckler: Cold Throw: Reduced damage. Predator: Intoxication: Damage over time effect will now stack with other allies. - Predator: Point Blank Shot: Reduced stun duration, Recast time lowered to 45s, damage decreased - Ranger: Thorny Trap: Duration of Root effect has been reduced. - Ranger: Storm of Arrows: Can no longer be cast on the run. Looks like and rogue classes do get all the love. Once again I digress into the shadows to watch my berzerker friend parse every fight and laugh at me. Not that it bugs me *twitch*
Hahahaha, yeah, that is kinda funny in a sick way. Ah well, more power to 'em! We had our months of being overpowered, it's gotta ebb and flow for everyone. Not that rogues are overpowered (at all), just in overall better shape than we are.
I play a swashie(and a ranger) and never noticed the double attack on ranged as a swashie as I don't range attack much ( when I do I throw the daggers . ) but if in fact it is doing this it is a bug and will be fixed as it isn't intended. They have been slowly pruning the unintended side effects of this AA ability. First they made it so the second attack didn't have the normal chance to proc everything (poisons , casted procs etc). This patch caught the 2-hander exception that some were using to great effect. It is suppose to give a rogue with a 1 hander and an empty secondary slot an additional chance to attack but only with that weapon. So if this is causing ranged weapons to double attack it is simply a bug. Using it as a case of comparision of AAs seems a bit questionable. Still some debate over whether this AA line yields any more dmg for the swashie than going dual wield, which is as it should be, provides a bit of flaver . Two make the single weapon approach even break even with normal dual wield and no AAs takes quite a few points. Drevva
You're pointing at a list of 6 alterations to Rogue classes and 4 of the alterations are nerfs and you come out with "Rogues get all the love"... you muppet. You also neatly miss the fact that the Rogues WIS AA line got jumped on heavily last update. They are attempting to even out the Rogue AA. It's sickening the number of Rangers still shuffling around behaving like depressed goths.
Edited out completely for sanity's sake. For trolling Ranger boards you owe 5 pp to all the rangers on this board for arrow expenses. As I take the high road my ranger friends please congratulate my new found friend on his ability to flame and his ability to forget EVERY update. Message Edited by Nikki656 on 06-15-2006 10:03 AM
No ranger wants to see a rouge nerfed.. Well, cept maybe some pvp people All we want, is to play a game, to mid highend to highend. Where our class isent being outshined by other classes in a lower tier.. Let me put it in terms people can understand. Your a boxxer, you train everyday you are the best of the best at what you do.. You get in a fight with some 95 pound kid who whines to his mamma everytime he gets made fun of. You put him in the ring with ya, you try your best.. You fall on your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and get the living sh*t beat out of you. - This is where we are comming from.
Three options here folks..... 1) quit...just pack up your toys and go home! 2) retire...stop playing your char and sit around like a bunch of ole geezers in the park.." well, in my day we could run like the wind as we shot a zillion arrows at everything that moved and killed'em dead... then those (insert adjectives and nouns) nerfed the crap outta us!" 3) adapt and overcome...re-learn your char...know your strenghts and more important your weaknesses!
