Quality levels of crafting process - update on changes

[p]If you only took the (1) primary component when pristine is failed, that would be ok. After all it is "THE" primary component.[/p][p]IMO outfitters and crasftman should get the same treatment scholars do. Whereever you end up you get the pristine on mastercrafted and leave the grind stuff alone.[/p][p]No matter what 'tier' i stop on I always get an adept 3, not so for outfitters and crasftman. (not sure why they are hated on)[/p][p] [/p]

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

You still get xp for sub-pristine combines. Domino has said this earlier in the thread. EDITED: Oops, my bad - it isn't this thread she says this, but the one on RoK Changes.

Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing crafted items called Crafted Imbued Cobalt Longsword or whatever. I just don't like the word pristine. I also think that we should get our product at the third level, not the fourth level, and that crafting that item to "pristine" still gives you the same item but extra stuff too. So the word pristine doesn't go very well with what I'm proposing.

Your comments about how subs could be reimplemented are valid, and I don't want to detract from them, but that is not what I'm driving at when I ask for them back. The system used to be a real process. That process got stripped. I want it back, in some form. The process made crafting fun for me. Single combines are not fun for me.

I'm not entirely sure I like this, as I rarely end up with a non-pristine item. The only times I do are on T1 items outside my class, because of the lack of durability buffs (but who makes those, anyway) and I did miss a timed writ due to it taking too long, but that just means I need to do one writ lower for that level and try again later. If it's either pristine or nothing, I do hope that a few special items stay as they are - the Frostfell clothing and the snowcreatures, since those are different at each quality level. There may be others (I know some armour has different stats based on quality), and that needs to stay.

How will this change affect containers? Currently the sizes of the containers are different because of the quality level. Also what will be the size of the RoK tier 8 container sizes? How will the difference in the backpacks and strong boxes sizes be corrected? May I suggest the following sizes for backpacks and strong boxes?
Backpacks Strongboxes
(T1 hc) Rawhide 6 Elm 8
(T1 mc) Waxed 9 Alder 12
(T2 hc) Tanned 9 Maple 12
(T2 mc) Cured 12 Bone 16
(T3 hc) Boiled 12 Ash 16
(T3 mc) Cuirboilli 15 Fir 20
(T4 hc) Etched 15 Briarwood 20
(T4 mc) Engraved 18 Oak 24
(T5 hc) Strengthened 18 Teak 24
(T5 mc) Augmented 21 Cedar 28
(T6 hc) Stonehide 21 Sandalwood 28
(T6 mc) Scaled 24 Ironwood 32
(T7 hc) Horned 24 Rosewood 32
(T7 mc) Dragonhide 27 Ebony 36
(T8 hc) TBA 27 TBA 36
(T8 mc) TBA 30 TBA 40

As you see the ratio between backpack and strong box slots are ¾. This should make backpacks relevant for future level cap raises.

Devilsbane wrote:

Unless I'm sorely mistaken...there are no odd numbered pristine crafted bags. Every teir bags go up by 2 slots and strongboxes go up by 4. There's no special math involved in figuring this out, just 6+2 every teir up and 8+4 every teir up....master crafted is 2 additional for bags and 4 additional for strongboxes.
I havent read all the posts on this page but I hear a lot of people talking about some risk being involved with crafting items......I don't get anything but pristine once I hit level 10 so I don't really see any risk involved.

TheSpin wrote:

The two (handcrafted) and four (mastercrafted) backpack slot increase every tier was back when bags could not be resized, now they can be resized. Backpacks slots have fallen way behind those of strongboxes. They need to be caught up to stay relevant. Currently backpacks are irrelevant because almost every class (except maybe Magi) can carry several strong boxes. My Fury carries four because I mentor so much, else she would be carrying six of them.
When the revamp comes the risk will be loss of time, materials, and cost of fuel.

That resizing is only UI, not number of slots. The only way you get an odd number of slots on a bag is if you missed pristine. (And no, not eveyrone carries around strong boxes)

Insurance for rare components?
If a crafter fears he may not get pristine let him pay an insurance premium to get his primary component (or all components) back when he fails to make pristine. If he does not buy the insurace the components are consumed during the process along with the fuel. There could be a standard charge say 1 gold per tier for makes involving rares and 1 silver per tier for others. This can be applied to all items that can be made including Adept III's, Altars, Vendor crates and harvesting tools. It could even be applied to tinkering and transmuting.
I doubt if many crafters would consider the risk of failing to make pristine worth the cost of insuring the components.
Pristine is the only acceptable product
As has been pointed out earlier, players prefer pristine product. In an ideal world all items should have to be made to pristine or be deemed failures. Domino is proposing this for most products but seems to be leaving some exceptions, Adept III, vendor crates, cloaks, harvest tools, food and drink, potions/poisons and missiles.
Most scholar produced items can be handled easily, only provide Adept III for completing the four lines, treat the other three lines as for other items. Similiarly for vendor crates, altars, cloaks and harvesting tools.
Provisioners would only produce an item for completing the fourth line, but have its duration doubled. (If this would give people lots of extra free food and drink, it would be a one off effect that the game could live with. Of course the stacks of 20 would give double the existing duration for the same stack size)
That would leave Alchemist's poisions/potions and Woodworker's missile weapons. Although I am unhappy about the special status that lets crafters produce less than pristine products I can see no logical and satisfactory method of dealing with the (minor) problem, except letting them produce a portion of the items crafted as now.
Interestingly in this case the crafter is compensated in proportion to the quality of his work (100% for four lines, 75% for 3 lines, etc) As I have previously stated I believe this is the best model for all compensation for less than pristine work. That is if a crafter produces an item that is less than pristine he should only receive a percentage of his fuel costs back - and none of his raw materials.
Catin of Runnyeye

[p] I'm not sure that Domino has made up her mind on the ad3s yet. I'll point out that even though my transmuter is maxed now (hooray!), the quickest way for me to get there was by making ad3s with the cheapest rares and xmuting them for powders/infusions. If I had had to take all those AD3s to pristine, maxing my transmuting would have taken 4 times as long. Since it really felt like a grind as it was, such a change seems cruel to incoming players imo. [/p][p] [/p]

Calthine wrote:

Okay, I do not see the problem with adding more slots then. Even if the new pristine backpacks ends up with a odd number of slots. :-?

Backpacks are not irrelevant. Enough people buy pristine strengthened leather backpacks (14 slots) from my tailor to make him my most profitable crafter. For roleplay reasons all my toons use packs rather than boxes when adventuring. I would like some in game advantage for packs over boxes more than the weight which is insignificant for most toons. (Magi are an exception though, my illusion is overburdend when he carries 1 box instead of a bag). Perhaps for boxes beyond the current maximum carrying them could negate movement bonuses. On the rare occasions when I do fail to get pristine (e.g. because the phone rings) when making a bag I am able to sell the result on the broker. I make less money than for a pristine, but still get a profit.

[p]The only real problem I have with this new system if what if you dont want to make pristine. For example, sage/jeweler/alchemist making and adept 3. When i do my weekly restocks on spells I only make up to crude on lvl 20-59 spells. The dust off them do not sell for much and are a waste of time to make the combine go all the way to pristine. For lvll 61-70 they are worth it because the dust does sell. Under the new system, in order to restock lower teir stuff I would have to spend a lot more time just making pristine when I stock the lower teirs. That would just suck imo.[/p][p] Maybe add a way in there to toggle only getting pristine vs allowing it to crude out if you want.[/p][p] [/p][p](not sure if this has already been brought up.. i read thru 5 pages and ran out of time to read the rest before I got of work =P)[/p]

I totally agree. There are times when you want to stop short of making pristine. Say if you are a transmuter or tinkerer, you are loaded with cash but do not have much time and want to crash through the levels or maybe you think that getting x amt of something back isn't really worth the time to go through all 4 progress bars, then you probably want to stop after the first bar is done. I believe better thing to do is to allow only-pristine method for mastercrafted items so that LD's don't affect the final product. Giving us option to go through or not is better than locking us into one system.

I just remembered... there are several quests in game that require the 3rd tier and NOT the pristine item to do the turn in. This may have been mentioned already but in case not, the ones I know of are... In Thundering Steppes in the village - a woman needs 5 tin swords In Enchanted Lands there is a hobbit standing by a tree that has four quests needing tradeskill items from four tradeskills... the food ones should still be ok but the other three might have be affected. I'll try to find the names etc but maybe someone else will know and can jump in with it. Edit: Quest giver in EL is Deputy Hopple (loc 169, -474). He has four tradeskill quests.

dartie wrote:

Dartie makes an interesting point, but why should scholars be favoured? Craftsmen and Outfitters would be equally happy if they could prep work for transmuting by only making items to the end of bar one. (At present they can make items to only crude for transmuting.) If, in future, they will have to make items to pristine, is there any good reasons why scholars should not?
Of course Carpenters and Provisioners would like to have the opportunity to make products for transmuting.

Expect these changes: For jewelry, armor, fancy tailor clothing, furniture, shields, spell scrolls (both apprentice and adept), harvesting tools, and weapons: [ul][li]If the recipe is handcrafted quality and is NOT imbued, then quality levels 1-3 should return the fuel, quality level 3 should also return the first of the build components, in the quantity used. [/li][li]If the recipe is better than handcrafted quality, or is an imbued, then quality levels 1-3 should return the primary component (the rare, for mastercrafted items, or the pristine item, for imbued items). [/li][/ul]For adornments: [ul][li]Quality levels 1-3 should return the primary component, like rare recipes. Quality levels 1-2 should not return byproducts (currently they do, so this is removed). Byproducts remain the same for quality levels 3-4. [/li][/ul]For food and drink: [ul][li]Quality levels 1-2 should return just the fuel. Quality levels 3 and 4 remain as they are (1 product or 2 products). [/li][/ul]For potions and poisons, tinkering, distillations, totems, deathfist armor, Nest recipes, and ammo (arrows, throwing daggers, etc.): [ul][li]No change[/li][/ul] Yes, this means that the few privileged classes who had some recipes that gave the final product at crude (such as tailored fancy dress, adept III's, altars, rosewood patch kits) now have to make pristine to get a product. Yes, this is intended.

DominoDev wrote:

If this includes the adornments crafted by transmuters then transmuters will need more efficient buffs. the current 4 transmuting buffs cannot do much if you get a bad streak from the random number generator.

Bleh, we're not that spoiled. If you stop short on adept III you end up with one less dust out of the combine. No thanks.

DominoDev wrote:

(I'll admit up front I didn't read all 14 pages of the thread)

Will the Enchanted Lands Tradeskill Line of quests be adjusted to accept pristine Forged Feyiron Dagger and Pristine Tailored Broadcloth Cap with this change?