Quality levels of crafting process - update on changes

100 identical -good- items when only 10 are needed means 90 of them will not sell. They can have stats better than any treasured item, if only 10 out of 100 are needed, 90 will not sell. If you have 90 -dumped- on the broker sitting there unsold and getting reduced in price to negligible, they devalue the whole 100, even if they are better products than ones gotten with more effort. I understand your point about getting XP for what seems little or no cost (other than time), but the alternative, product dumping (just ask any alchemist or provisioner how often they have "competed" with product dumpers) is not a solution. For crude, in Domino's scheme, no harvest raws would be returned, only fuel cost, so your arguement about -that- is moot. The XP for crude could be tweaked to be considerably less than pristine, same with the other 2 no-product generating qualities.

There are 2 reasons people dump to the vendor. Leveling is the primary and the second is what we call "Good Samaritans" who are trying to "do everyone a favor" by putting up really cheap items. Actually I think there is a third factor, which is people who automatically lower their prices below the lowest one because it's too much trouble to remove it and vendor it when the indicator turns red. To justify this, it could be said that the redline price is not what you can get back if you run it down to your nearest vendor. That is why I suggest: make leveling fodder WO's and quests, not usable items. As stated by a previous poster, WO's need to reflect the difficulty stated on the WO, ie. if it's the top difficulty it shouldn't be blue! IMHO the only way you'll get people off the kick of using salable items for leveling is to take the XP away after the disco. If there's no reason to make 100 identical gloves then there won't be 100 of them for sale at fuel cost or below.

[p]It does not matter what happens to a pristine item once it is made.[/p][p]If it sells for a profit. Good.[/p][p]If it doesn't sell for a profit. Vendor, and *you* get your fuel costs back.[/p][p]If people, for any reason, decide to "product-dump" on the broker, it makes no difference ~ at worst, you still got your money back from the vendor ~ and guess what, they BOUGHT the right to do whatever they want to do with the item they made because they PAID FOR FUEL. If they sell at a loss, then they're not following your gameplan of crafting for 0 fuel costs ~ they're losing money, and it's their right to be bizarre.[/p][p]You have no argument, if you make an item you can always recoup your fuel costs at a vendor. What someone else chooses to do once they've paid for the item, by spending time crafting and spending money on fuel, is none of your business. What you're advocating is spending as little time as possible crafting and interacting with NPCs, and spending NO money at all, to get XP. IMO, that is plain wrong, and that's my last words on this subject. It seems we're going to have to agree to disagree on what it means to be a "crafter".[/p]

I would just like to make point on some things. I have 4 lvl70 crafters 2 of them (weaponsmith and provisionar) lvled in old system (adlest till 60), second 2 (sage and alchemist (wow that was fast lvling) in new one) After that I stopped working on any more, reason is now everyone have high lvl crafters new crafting system that came with T7 is great for macros and if people who using it don't even need to bother to make pristine now and be able to sell item on same price as someone who put effort in it was watching progress bar and actually worked for it where will that lead us? At this point crafting is not worth effort. I can make money with adventuring and buy really cheap everything I need with loosing way less time in process. At first I was happy with big crafting revamp (we all like getting things easy way :twisted: ) but now not sure anymore, if changes need to be done I think should be concentrated on making crafting worth effort again, even if damage done till now can't be fixed anymore. (guess lot of people will disagree with me but my personal opinion of old and new changes)

I would just like to make point on some things. I have 4 lvl70 crafters 2 of them (weaponsmith and provisionar) lvled in old system (adlest till 60), second 2 (sage and alchemist (wow that was fast lvling) in new one) After that I stopped working on any more, reason is now everyone have high lvl crafters new crafting system that came with T7 is great for macros and if people who using it don't even need to bother to make pristine now and be able to sell item on same price as someone who put effort in it was watching progress bar and actually worked for it where will that lead us? At this point crafting is not worth effort. I can make money with adventuring and buy really cheap everything I need with loosing way less time in process. At first I was happy with big crafting revamp (we all like getting things easy way :twisted: ) but now not sure anymore, if changes need to be done I think should be concentrated on making crafting worth effort again, even if damage done till now can't be fixed anymore. (guess lot of people will disagree with me but my personal opinion of old and new changes) Don't know how it happened but apologies to everyone for double post, if any administrator see this please delete one.

It certainly does to me. If I can sell it I feel good that I have made something useful that someone wants. If I have to vendor it I am disappointed.

It's very true that people have differing points of view on all aspects of the game. Some people run extreme high performance with a parser going all the time and don't even know how to turn their helmet off. Some role play and dream of running extreme high quality and having matching armor sets. While some people may not care whether there is a fair market for crafted items and level only to be able to make the highest rare stuff for their guild, some like to play a crafter in a more traditional RPG style. The current system imposes the views of the first set over the views of the second and that to me is where the problem lies. I can ask the same: if you don't care what happens to the stuff after you grind it then why should you care whether it is cranked out of a WO or not? With WO's you don't even have to bother trucking to the vendor when your pack is full, nor do you have full pack issues, you also make coin and your guild gains status. On the other hand broker dumping does impact heavily on those who are into other play styles. I'm not saying this to be confrontational, only to point out that this really is a big issue with those who are into the crafting experience that exists beyond brute leveling, which includes customers, shopkeeping and the markets... in short, "community".

Aker@Splitpaw wrote:

I would love to see what the "old system" was.. I am sure it was actually better than it currently is. Rightnow crafting is way too easy. The only reason there isnt more crafters than we already have is simply because the products are not worth it in the end.

But I doubt most people would be happy to see a revamp that made crafting harder. There would be much complaining.

I'm pretty shure you right about few things. First "old" system of crafting was pain in the a.. but not everyone was bale to hold str and endurance to max there crafters and you could earn money from crafting. And you right again biggest problem at the moment for crafting is that most of products are useless but I still think that very big problem is that someone can leave his toon while he sleep and have few hundred items on the morning for sale, so he can sell them with minimum profit because he didn't work for it really. Like Liyle sad there are people who enjoy different aspects of the game raiding, adventuring and crafting. I play in hard core raid guild and I love it but I do like to do little questing and did love crafting before was relaxing. As Terron sad: " If I can sell it I feel good that I have made something useful that someone wants. If I have to vendor it I am disappointed." Now my main is provisioner crafted food and drinks are still in use but most of people made one for them self and rest buying from guys who have like 400-500 pieces at same time on market always, on price that is minimal above what you need to make it. (with time spend in harvesting and crafting that how that pay off to them you can imagine) So sadly I need to say at this point crafting for me is pointless I'll go adventure little, make money to buy items I need (I do that now even for some I can make my self, it is just not worth time) and after all still not spend as much as I earned.

Since there is some interest I will post a new thread reminiscing about the old system. That discussion doesn't fit this topic.

There seem to me to be two problems being addressed in this discussion
1 How do you penalise crafters for making less than pristine items when crafting?
2 How do you deal with producing a less than pristine item for reasons beyond the recipients control? In particular when someone places a commision or the crafter goes "Linkdead"
The answer to the first of these is simple have the vendor pay less than full fuel costs for less than pristine items Say 25% for crude, 50% for shape ,75% for unnamed and 100% for pristine. And of course 0% for mangled.
The answer to the second is nothing should be done, the unfortunate recipient should take the loss. Crafting should not be totally risk free. Any adventurer who was killed as a result of computer failure is still killed. Why should a crafter (or customer) not suffer loss? If an adventurer wants a pristine item he should either buy one off the broker or negotiate a trade with crafter, the purchaser including the rare as part of the payment. For example if you want a pristine xegonite vanguard gusset I will sell you one for 85 gold or 10 gold plus a xegonite cluster. Both should be risk free as long as both parties watch the trade window carefully. The only justification for using the comission window is for tinkered no trade items. (Don't get me started on that !)
Catin of Runnyeye (40 Conjourer/70 Carpenter)

Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote:

Almost perfect except you forgot NPC trainers sell AppIIs and Adept IIs are given out by GM for events. So maybe the following editted chart can be approved.
App I - Existing App I
App II - Existing Merchant sold App II
App III - Existing crafted App IV
Adept I - Existing Adept I
Adept II - Existing GM Adept II Rewards
Adept III - Existing crafted Adept III
Master I - Existing Master I
Master II - Existing Master II
Master III - to be announced/approved crafted Master III (takes all rare materials and adventured fuel)

Terron wrote:

And what does that have to do with *this* discussion?
We're talking about the PROCESS of crafting. You're talking about what the item you made is worth to other players. Two entirely different things.
Yes, of course I care what happens to the items I make! I want to be a crafter running a business. But I realise that item desirability has nothing to do with how I actually made the item, how much XP I got for making it (or failing to make it) and how much I paid for the fuel. I don't care what OTHER people do with the items they made ~ what business of mine is that??? If they want to be samaritans and lose money or not make as big a profit as they could, then that's something I'll have to deal with as I'm playing an MMO (clearly along with people from bizarro-world). Yes, it drives me nuts to see items placed on the broker for little money, but IN REALITY, I lost nothing. I shrug my shoulders and turn round and sell my item to the vendor. Whether their item sells or not, it's none of my concern. I think they're bonkers, but hey, I'd say we're all several sandwiches short of a picnic.
Now, item progression, which dictates the essential desirability of item is a whole other discussion. In particular, the positions that Handcrafted, Treasured, Legendary, Mastercrafted and Fabled...et al, should ideally hold in order to make crafting worthwhile overall.
What we're talking about here is removing the chaff of handcrafted items, and whether or not you should be rewarded with MORE than XP for creating nothing and failing to make a pristine (or appIV) item. Some people are bringing up the argument that they can get money for creating lesser items now and that the only change is that they'll not have to refuel, or visit a vendor, or carry those items, or stop when their backpacks get full. And I'm saying that if you fail to make an item, you should lose the fuel, especially if you're still getting any XP.
Crafting is easy enough as it is and making an item pristine isn't difficult; if you choose to level by not making items, then you should pay for the priviledge. If once in a blue moon you mess up or go linkdead (while crafting Handcrafted items) then that's something you'll have to suck up and move on. Crafting should not be risk-free. Remember: this wouldn't affect Mastercrafted items, because they *should* all be the same as Adept IIIs are now and made "pristine" at the very first quality level.

[p] I've put my opinions about these changes above. The more I think about this 'change' to remove other qualities, the more I just don't like it. Seems like it just devalues crafters time even more. [/p][p]I mean we just went through months and months of crafting revamp where one of the developers told us nothing "pulled from the ground" will be worth much (not in those exact words but it felt really insulting to artisans) [/p][p]Then the common crafted was nurfed to garbage and mastercrafted nurfed a lot in stats. Imbues to be "removed", then not removed but many master crafted never had any imbues added to them. [/p][p]I would like the master crafted jewelry that was nurfed to be resist junk changed back to decent stats stuff, imbues added to the jewelry. [/p][p]I would like imbues recipes added to master crafted tunics and leggings that don't have them. I would like the imbues that were nurfed down like heal procs, somewhat restored.[/p][p]I'd like more recipes for potions, poisons, and someone to take a look at all the potions, poisons that don't stack be made stackable.[/p][p]I would like the stats that were nurfed/removed from food and drinks somewhat restored and some decent, fun effects added to food/drinks. And nothing more that only are accessable by raiders/lvl 70 farmers, thanks![/p][p]Maybe add a potion bag recipe that allows totems/poisons items to stack-up?(like on the broker)[/p][p]I dunno all that stats, imbues procs removed/reduced from weapons/armors..god remember we had to post and post and BEG to get resists added and not lose imbues. [/p][p]And now another "change" remove qualities, no more bags filling with 'mistakes, no more "choice" to make a low lvl guildie a couple of low lvl adept 3s and just stop at the first bar..its not a experience combine but a time consuming combine. No more choice to make crudes master crafted for transmuting. I want to deal with my own less than pristine crafts myself! I choose, not the game![/p][p]Another change like is proposed will give free reign to macro-bots to lvl up all the other crafts they have avoided because their bags fill up with clothes/armors/boxes.[/p][p]And what about the writs? last big "revamp" we had to sit MONTHs and months without guild lvling writs. [/p][p]There is so much that Beggins removed, changed, forgot, ruined, in crafting..I would really like time spent improving what was really messed up over the past 2 years. Rather than another crafting change just for change.[/p][p]p/s please don't forget to remove the beta crafting test merchants before anything goes live. Every expansion some tester forgets their merchants, and the last times we got flooded with 20 thousand cheap drinks and almost free raws off of forgotten beta merchants. They also made that mistake in EQ1 and those merchants were full of crafting rares! and cause a lot of exploits/server down time while they fixed stuff. In eq2 the excess drinks were never removed from stuffed guild banks ever.[/p][p]just annoyed with change just to change something. I'd like all the things nurfed badly over the last few years looked at and fixed first. [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

I am not happy with the idea of crafters getting xp for failing to create something. I do agree that crafting should not be risk free. I think that should apply even more to mastercrafted items. I think making everything like adept IIIs would not be bad idea.

MrWolfie wrote:

You are continuing to fail to realise that crafting to ONE line of quality is NOT failing to craft. It is one line of SUCCESS. You are also not realising that the 3rd line of quality was intended as the most common result with pristine as the result for extra effort.

You do, even now, get less XP for crafting to one line than pristine (considerably less). You get less XP to craft to 2 lines vs pristine. You even get less XP to craft to 3 lines than you do pristine.

Also.. I'm not sure that you realise (as many times as it's been discussed in this forum) that for tinkering or transmuting you can craft to the FIRST line of success, stop, and get a chance for a skill increase. If you craft to higher levels of success, you get back some of your components. In your perception, that should also be considered rewards for "failing" to make pristine. Yes, a tinker or transmuter does get an item for any level of success (like adepts) and they can sell them to an NPC for the fuel costs.

ALL that Domino's scheme (removing product return from the first 3 levels of SUCCESS but returning the fuel) is doing is removing the need to go back and forth to the NPC vendor. The return of harvest components for succeeding to get 2nd or 3rd line of SUCCESS as well as more XP than for the 1st line of SUCCESS is a reward for putting in more effort. Putting in the effort to get a 4th line of success gains the ultimate reward, a pristine item.

What I don't understand, is that in the same breath you decry as failure those who craft handcrafted items to any level of success other than the 4th, you also advocate having all mastercrafted only need 1 level of success in order to have the full product -and- more. In Domino's scheme, for mastercrafted (vs handcrafted) there is more penalty for not working harder to get a full 4 bar success reflecting that mastercrafted -should- be harder to produce than handcrafted.

Terron wrote:

Lesser handcrafted items ARE going away. You will only be able to make pristine handcrafted items. Currently, if you make a crude (app1), shaped (app2) or "average" (app3) object you get an item and you get XP. In the future these items will not exist, but you'll still get the XP as if you had made the item ~ it is being put forward that you shouldn't have to pay to get this XP either, since you don't have to pay for it now (but I say you do because you have to buy loads of fuel in advance, you are restricted by bagspace and you have to frequently interact with an NPC to recoup your fuel costs).
Making everything, handcrafted included, like Adept IIIs are now, would IMHO, make crafting waaaay too easy. Adept IIIs are the way they are so that it is relatively risk-free to make mastercrafted AND you get bonus dusts if you succeed in reaching higher quality levels. I think that all mastercrafted items should be made this way, and the bonus is dusts. For handcrafted, the bonus for reaching the highest quality level is getting an item (which is the equivalent of *at least* getting your fuel back) and getting the maximum xp possible on that combine, and, most importantly, not losing stuff.
Rijacki wrote:

You know, Domino was a crafter since Beta when SOE hired her. Perhaps you should trust her a little. Yeah, I'm her Fangurl.

[p] I think she's brilliant too, she's certainly the best dev for communication, but she asked for feedback on the proposed changes. I don't think that giving people the tools to walk away from crafting and get XP without refuelling is the right way forward, and that giving people rares back might also be exploited ~ better to make all mastercrafted like adept IIIs, a function that is working just fine right now, in my opinion.[/p][p]What do you think about those points, Calth?[/p]

Agreed. This thread was opened by Domino specifically for comments. I think it's a brilliant move... check the heat *before* you commit. Dom is definitely the best we've ever had! I feel soo loved. Hehe. Now, I can I vote again for putting the burden of leveling onto WO's and quests, and for making WO's level appropriate? Please? I mean I would never stuff the ballot box or anything.... Neriakians would never do something like that.....!:thumbup: