Poisons ARE a rogue/predator professional spell!

poison is a professional spell. my scouts have used them since a very low level and with the coming changes to crits and crit bonus being directly tied to class, the crits would be self regulated naturally. when the changes to regulate "item proc dmg" where made there was no reason to include poisons, since poisons are not an "item" they are an abiity that can only be used by certain professions in other words a professional spell.

clearly these changes where made because certain items where becoming to hard to control BUT another reason that these changes where made is because certain classes that where not suppose to do large amount of dmg where indeed using these items to "pad" their dmg. it is then understandable that you would want to limit the damge of these "items" that can basically be worn by any class(tanks,healers) BUT poisons are in fact limite to 4 dps classes and are very much part of these classes professional duties as dmg classes.

lets face it.. these 4 scout classes are invited to raids to provide dmg crippling a dmg source that has been with these classes since day one is not what these changes where intended to do and said changes should be reverted to original status as a proffesional spell.

i welcome and input or views on the matter, thanks.

Applying the poison is the class skill. The poison itself is a proc and should be bound by any and all game mechanics that cover weapon procs.

that makes no sense.. procs where not nerfed it was item/gear procs that where nerfed. poison is as much part of the rogue/pred class as arias or friggid gift is part of the troubs and wizards. soe dropped the ball letting poisons get bunched in with item/gear procs.

people who enjoy playing scouts should understand that this is an unjustifiable nerf to a scout professional ability. this is how it starts and then come next expansion rogue/preds will be part of the useless bunch... poison dmg was never over powerd or out of line. these changes should have never happend and sure they don't seem like that big of a deal now but come next expansion when everyone is running around with 100% crit melee/spell/range/heal, this will make a difference.

Sure it does. The poison is made my Alchemists.....not Scouts. So why should the Scouts base damage mods affect the damage of the poisons?

A couple of questions:

1. What class are you playing?
   • If it's a Predator class then the Spell Crit Bonus you were getting from the AA line pre-change was adjusted to give a similar amount of damage bonus to poisons. It might have been a small drop, but my parses were not significantly different. Now those who had a 100% Spell Crit would obviously see downward difference but I would love to see how anyone but very top-end raiders with Avatar quality gear did that without sacrificing Ranged Crit, Ranged Double Attack, DPS and Haste.
   • If it's a Rogue class than just how much spell crit did you really have? I fail to see how you could have had enough to truly affect your DPS, but I could be wrong on that.
2. What were your parses pre-change and post-change? Have you seen a significant drop that you can then show to back up your claims. "It feels like it's less" is not enough to start making mechanics changes.
3. If you can't provide parses can you show us the math where we have theoretically significant shifts in DPS?

These questions are of course assuming that you are trying to prove we lost something (which you have not proven). If you're just asking for a flat DPS increase you need be more clear and state that that is what you are looking for and that this is the method you think should be pursued. Either way at the moment you are claiming a massive injustice has been done, but you haven't done anything to back it up other than state "Facts" that are solely your opinion.
And please, don't pull out the sky is falling, the dominoes are about to start falling argument. That rhetoric does nothing to advance the discussion and only alienates your point by driving people away.

Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:

so how does a proc made by alchys that can only be used by 4 profession in anyway make it an item/gear proc? it's not, it's of its own brand and that in it self makes it a professional spell NOT a generic gear/item proc.

Nevao wrote:

my scouts did not have a huge dps drop from the changes BUT that does not mean that poison is not a professional ability. after all ONLY 4 professions can use them.

im not starting a "teh sky is falling" thread and i never once said "i feel like it's less". you need to read my post again and realize that, what i have written clearly has more to do with future changes then it does with current mechanics.


exactly, there was not a huge drop in dps, because? poison was not out of line or overpowered AND come next expansion(100% crit melee/spell/heal/range) the fact that it can't crit/modified will indeed break that professional ability.

i have seen this happen to my guard, necro and troub. it starts small or with something insignificant but as new expansions roll out with new mechanics the class falls off.

Woot! The quote game! I can play it too.
Davngr1 wrote:

You also go on in your last post to say it starts small and start citing other classes that you feel are not where they should be. Sounds suspiciously to me like the sky is falling. But I am a simpleton with reading comprhension skill issues. Regardless we're both digressesing from the content of your original post.
The point I'm trying to make though is that you are saying "WE'VE BEEN NERFED!" (I can break out the quotes if you want again) and that "we're going to feel it in the future!" But you haven't shown any proof how we're being affected today much less in the future. If you provided some kind of math or theory than we could have a proper discussion, but you're not.
Working backwards to your first point I will have to say I whole heartedly disagree that Poisons are proffesion spells. Do you cast them? Do they appear in your knoweldge book? Are they unique to a class? Do you get them automatically as you level? The answer is No to all of those questions. Due to that, espcially the knowledge book and casting points I would say they are not Profession spells and have never been. Further to the point, all item procs were acting as spells. That was the stated reason for the "changes" to the Warlock Propogations AA when RoK hit and why it was Intelligence and Spell Crit modifying them, not Strength or Mellee/Ranged crit like you would expect for these four classes.
But regardless of if they are proffession spells or not you are asking them to do something today that they do not do. Crit. They have in the past but they do not today and their damage was adjusted to compensate for them not. To state the obvious: Making them profression spells so they can Crit, per your request, will make them do more damage. I stand by my original assessment that you are asking for a Damage Increase to four classes. However you have provided no proof that those four classes are out of line DPS wise, or are being negatively impacted today or in the next expansion. You simply want them to behave a certain way that they are not and phrasing it as a "Fact" that they should.

Davngr1 wrote:

It is a temporary item proc that is in effect "added" to the weapon. But it is still an item proc not a spell.

Nevao wrote:

not really sure what "the quote game" is.. i just quote so it's easy to see what i'm responding to.

yes
yes
so how does the saying go about half truths?

clearly you're not understanding why i made this post and i guess time will tell. not really sure how else i can make you understand that ALL classes will have 100% crit for EVERYTHING. this will mean that preds/rogues will miss out on potential dmg since they will have zero use for spell crit.
poison is part of those classes profession, thus should not have been affected by said adjustment. i'm sick and tired of devs breaking one thing to fix another.

Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:

it's a professional ablity, that's why only my rogue and pred can use it. proc's where not adjusted, only non-professional item/gear proc's where adjusted, poison is not a generic proc ANY class can equip it's dedicated to 4 professions.

You don't cast a poison in a fight to do damage, you cast them on your weapon and they then "proc" from the weapon damage. If you wanted to you could compare them to the offensive stance (I'm surprised you did not) but at the same time the offensive stance is in your knowlegde book and doesn't run out (again indicative of it not being a spell) requiring you to go buy more.
And no, they are not unique to a class. To your point 4 classes can use them. By definition that is not unique. Poisons are like weapon adornments that apply a proc.
And you're right I'm not sure why you made the post. It's full of opinion touted as "fact". You're making claims that we've been wronged (which you have not attempted to back up with any kind of numerical evidence) and making claims that we're going to be wronged more (which you have no way of knowing since none of us know what changes are in the pipe yet). I'm assuming you think that those problems would be fixed if they just crit poison's which to be honest if you believe that it's a bit naive. Scout DPS is dependent on much more than poisons and there are other issues in this expansion that much more problematic to scout DPS such as melee/ranged hit rates against orange conned mobs vs spell/combat art hit rates.
It still appears you are saying GIVE US MORE DPS, but you're not backing up how we're out of line with other classes, or how we lost DPS after this change, just that you don't think a mechanic is right. Class balance can't be done against "I don't like how this one piece works, make it this way" and changing this would affect class balance. If you want it changed by the devs, or at least convince others that you are right you're going to need at least a semblance of supporting data that things are significantly out of whack and that this is the reason they are.
(on a side note I have no idea what the saying about half-truths are, but I do see how it's possible to take a single sentance out of context and use it prove your point)

Nevao wrote:

lol.. ok man if you must insist on "not understanding" let me make it really clear for you.

1. next expansion all classes will recive 100% crit everything. that will mean that procs that "can crit" will crit 100% of the time.
2. poison is NOTHING like an item/gear proc(since they have been part of the rogue/pred class since day one) thus poison should not have been adjusted like item/gear procs. you can try to reason in circles but the fact is that poison is a professional ability. i mean seriously.. preds/rogues have AA devoted specifically to them. you see any aa out there devoted to void bane or mutagenic burst??
3. this is not about "MORE DPS" this is about a "MISTAKE" made my devs by classifying poison as a generic proc when in fact it's a professional ability only 4 professions can use. sure it's not a big deal but never the less it should benefit from crit and mods the same way other professional abilitys do.


this is a simple fix, i guess the scout community is not intersted but at least i have made them aware of it.

Davngr1 wrote:

Didn't you hear they are making all the old gear degrade when you level so that they can design new gear that will be "better" at level 90 without everyone capping everything? Plus crit will work differently in general as well.

Davngr1 wrote:

1) Well I am glad your crystal ball is working....mine is in the shop getting repaired. But everything I have read indicates that you are wrong. Item degredation being introduced means all of your existing level 80 gear is going to be nearly worthless at level 90 meaning you will have to re-gear and we have NO CLUE what that gear will or will not have for crit mods.
2) As I recall poisons weren't even in the game at launch.......as memory serves. They had to add it in at a later patch and it is still an Alchemist that makes them. You might actually have a point if the classes could make their own poisons....but that can't. The AA's increase the trigger counts on the poisons which demonstrates their skill at not using up all of the poisons on their weapons with one strike.
3) Aeralik made this change. He is the mechanics Dev. He also plays an Assassin as his main character. This was NOT a "mistake". And you also got compensated for the change: (from the Producer's Letter)
"Predators will see a change to Toxic Expertise, The spell will now improve the base damage of poisons. We're also making adjustments to the Death Mark and Inspired Daring spell lines so that they trigger melee attacks instead of spell based attacks. This is to refocus the combat art back to improved poison damage, rather than the spell crit damage it has been doing."
So honestly.......what's the problem?

Davngr1 wrote:

1. Well if you're not going to provide parses or math would you at least provide your references for being able to say that we will be at 100% Crit for all crit types. Then once we've established that we can start working on the math to show that poisons not critting are going to put us at a disadvantage.
2. Not specific procs but there are are AA's that increase proc rates for items. Does that mean item procs count as profession spells for Templars? My guild leader who's a Templar would LOVE that.
3. Ok, even if this is not a cry for more DPS they already compensated for the fact that they don't crit anymore. So your requested change would give us by definition more DPS? And we're back to class balance issues again. That's a much larger can of worms to play with and your blithely leading us down the path. But if you really do think this is a mistake what are you willing to give up to offset DPS gain from critting poisons?

As for a "simple fix" please don't utter those words if you don't actually have access to the code, the design documents and a knowledge of how to change it. As someone who works on a development team (completetly unrelated) I've seen that phrase thrown out far too many times by peole who have no idea what they are talking about and they are almost always wrong.

Einina@Runnyeye wrote:

what's your point? old degrades sure but you really think all characters wont be at 100% crit anymore? so i will level to 90 to be less powerfull then i am now? lol
btw yes crit will work differently but it will still offer extra dmg, said dmg will depend on class.

Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:

well then..
read up on current plans for the future expansion.

Nevao wrote:

1. how hard is the math? it's 30% more dmg for a crit, i was under the impression that anyone posting would know such basic mechanics.
2. templar/dirge/mystic "proc chance AA" don't benefit one exact proc as pred/rogue aa do. there is no logic behind that statement, unlike my statement that clearly shows that poison dmg is part of the rogue/pred profession.
3. clearly i have "lost" you again.. this change would not net pred/rogue any more dps now, since neither class has any where near 100% crit. the gain would be seen come next expansion when 100% crit or close to that will be the norm for lvl 90 capped characters.

it's a simple fix... procs that crit and procs that do crit are all ready in game. all you have to do is unregulate poison.

Ok, let's try this in simple words and not bring in other points. What post do you have that shows we will be at 100% Crit next expansion. You are stating this as fact. Prove it. Since that seem to be part of your justification let's get that out of the way before we "discuss" anything else.