It is evergrind. You need something to grind out and pvp gear is an excellent option. Some people enjoyed it so much they geared 3 or 4 mains by grinding pvp tokens out at WF's. I was blue since blue went live and can say that pvp gear is awesome. The only time I mighta complained about it was when raid gear was extremely defensive and pvp gear was extremely offensive. Im thinkin EoF. At the time the pvp gear was not available to exiles which is where the bulk of the raiders were.
I am going to address the 1st green portion of your response During TSO the first real PvP gear sets ( that were any good anyway ) were put in it was not required for PvP. PvP gear and Raid gear were fairly even and if you wanted to be great at PvP you needed to wear some of both to be effective. Items like The Charm of the Lost and Ever Burning Lava Stud from the TSO zones were great items to have and some of the jewelry from SOH was great to have also like the bard ring or the tank ring with the repulsion on it just to name a few. With the release of SF the level cap was raised to 90 and BG's were put in. With new PvP gear ( Naggy still had open world PvP at this point and PvP gear that could only be obtained on a red server not BG gear ) Full groups of open world PvP players would zone up to the CR group up and Que up. As soon as the other side saw red server pre made they would /leave. Don't believe me check the archived forums there are threads upon threads of people complaining about red server pre made groups and how they had PvP gear that they could not get because there was no open world PvP on their server. So SoE fixed it and made all the gear the same. SoE also made BG's the only spot to get PvP gear and the fastest way to get it. This is how and why BG killed the population of the red servers and why red server players that are left have a hard time with blue server players asking for changes or blue players saying oh it was not BG's that killed your server you killed your server.
When battlegrounds came out, PVP gear was garbage. It was annihilated by raid gear, which is why they made it more polarized. Doing so boosted the importance of PVP gear to the point where obtaining it became a requirement, and the fastest way to do so was Battlegrounds. Unless, of course, you consider the joke that was zerging around doing writs. http://www.eq2flames.com/nagafen/50261-battlegrounds.html This thread is worth reading, for those that don't remember history as it was. hint: "Maybe this will suck less than regular pvp.. but probably not" is the consensus. The reliance on PVP gear is what did the damage. The failure to address open world PVP acquisition rate, and the laziness of the players who only wanted to farm the gear and log out. If Battlegrounds themselves were the problem, it would have to be due to the fact that they were so fun, nobody wanted to PVP overworld anymore because it was too slow paced or boring. But we know that isn't the case. It is an issue of gear reliance, the time to acquire, and the inability to do so WITHOUT Battlegrounds. That is not semantics. That is a very important distinction. And by that point, PVP was past it's peak anyway. Hell, EQ2 was past it's peak.
You do not understand I guess let me try a different way PvP gear was not required to be competitive in open world PvP until open world PvP gear was put into BG's because BLUE PLAYERS not just Raiders felt that red server players who had open world PvP gear had an advantage. The only advantage we had really was that we were speced for PvP and knew the rules for PvP. When SoE made the gear required by listening to Blue Players not just Raiders is when the gear became required for BG and there for open world PvP. This then cause people to gravitate to BG as it was the fastest way to obtain said gear. With less and less players in the open world people logged in less and less. This is how BG's killed red servers.
I think the only thing that we agree on, is disagreeing with what EQ2 PvP is and was... There are many PvP games...and many PvE games. EQ2 PvP was not a PvP game...it was a PvE game with risk and intelligent (in some cases at least) mobs. It was the same quests, with danger. It was the same shared dungeons, only you fought the other groups farming them and stealing the named mobs. So the analogy stands...as with a loss of players, both suffer the same loss in content. People could still play PvE in either case (whether it was loss of PvP'ers to BGs or Raiders to RG's), but in both cases, not many would. I understand you must have liked BGs (or else you picked an odd damsel to white knight)...I understand that a lot of Bluebies did and maybe some still do (or at least did when you could farm gear with procs from it). Would Naggy players be upset now if BGs were blocked...without a doubt. Would they have been upset then? Go back and reach the archived forums...you might be surprised how many asked for BGs to be eliminated. You can see in real time the failure of any forethought by the Devs, or should I say those in charge paying their bills. You can see the death of the servers happening with BGs, gear separation, and insta-travel. Anyways...long story short, there was an environment that caused crap tons of players to flock to it...there were dumb choices made to cause them to leave. Removing BGs would be another dumb move...it keeps the bluebies placated. But if SOE were to muster the courage to see if they were wrong, and were to make a red server with a restricted ruleset (limited travel options, no BGs, and AAs locked to level progression, the ability to lock at any level, PvP in all zones with level ranges that aren't so small), it would fill to full capacity in the first week...it would stay that way as long as they left it alone. But they won't...because they know it would be popular...and they also know it would cause BGs to be empty, except for you.
You're wrong, sorry. The buffing of PVP gear and incorporation of it into battlegrounds was a crutch for PVP players to feel less inferior to their hardy PVE raiding brethren. Not just blue raider envy, but the extremely powerful raid gear that the Nagafen raiders had as well. http://www.eq2flames.com/nagafen/51708-new-bgs.html Read, and learn. "Faceroll Zerg" was the PVP standard at battlegrounds launch. I'll say it again, since it's super complicated: The changes to PVP gear and the method and rate of acquisition were a huge problem. The idea of having a place to PVP for fun cross-server is NOT what "killed" PVP. And that is what Battlegrounds was, until red players decided their gear needed to be able to directly compete with raid gear. Poof. PVP gear is stronger, more required, and people go to the easiest place to obtain it quickly: Battlegrounds. http://www.eq2flames.com/nagafen/52423-so-you-gonna-wear-your-pve-pvp-armor.html And again, open world PVP was pretty awful by then anyway. Maybe Nagafen would have "lived" a little longer in misery without battlegrounds, but removing battlegrounds or going back in time to prevent their implementation does not solve the problem. Whether they turned out horrible or not, per your opinions, does not change the fact that battlegrounds were a desired addition to EQ2 PVP at the time, for almost everyone.
Open world PvP was not awful at that time. There was plenty to be had in every open zone ( I was there on Naggy ) While I do not like BG's I did do them some at the start just to see and I go back every now and then to make sure that I still do not like them. I have never been rolled in BG's by Blue Players in OP raid gear even back then. The only time I remember PvE gear being top of the food chain for PvP was before PvP gear release in TSO ( well before BG's ) and in DoV when it took 6+ months for PvP gear update ( well after BG's). You keep linking posts on the other site. I learned a long time ago that while that site has some good info on it for PvE it is rarely any real use for a PvP player other than to go and have a much more spirited conversation than these boards allow. Edit to add quick look at the 2nd thread you linked and it starts with a poster saying that thanks to Blue Players requesting gear separation red server players will now need to choose between PvP gear and PvE gear when in the open world. Which would have never happened in a pre BG EQ2 Thanks for helping make my point. Cheers
I think you are just misunderstanding. No one is saying that battlegrounds is the sole reason for the decline of pvp but it was a major factor. PvP was still thriving when bg's were implemented but the combination of bg's, insta travel, toughness, dumbed down stats, AA slider, more and more instances, gear seperation, city zone restrictions in open world zones (darklight, gfay, ruins, caves, down below, peat bog etc.) vet calls, rally flags, 130% mount speed, flying, leaping, gliding mounts, 1 min immunity timers and removing original fame system. I'm sure there is more to add to that list too. It all seemed to happen simultaneously and before we knew it, we were playing a whole different game that few were proud of. Looking at that list makes you wonder how or why anyone, dev or player, would even consider those idiotic idea's to be implemented on a pvp server whose life revolves around open world pvp to stay thriving.
You could have also attempted to discern the trolling and/or cynicism in the first post, and the responses to the post that make it extremely obvious. Reds didn't want blues using PVE gear in PVP. Blues didn't want reds using PVP gear in PVE. But the PVE gear annihilated the PVP gear in PVP. PVP gear was just "okay" in PVE. Fleshdecay, your list is very accurate, and I'm sure you know what you're talking about. As you know, the list is longer, and it isn't just PVP that suffered in SF. It was markedly the end of old EQ2 for almost everyone. The only difference is, I see battlegrounds popularity and the Nagafen population problem as a result of how horribly PVP was ruined. I don't see battlegrounds as a cause, to any legitimate degree, but as a symptom. A symptom that, otherwise, would have a handful of people still on the server AND no place to experience any PVP whatsoever. I'm bored of the thread at this point, and I'll keep trying to contribute to meaningful, closed-doors brainstorming to fix the Nagafen problem. In conclusion, it all goes back to what I posted a couple pages ago: The appeal of PVP in MMOs. It's extremely difficult to achieve, and at it's core, you are enjoying the expression of your superiority over others as a player of the MMO as a whole, not just PVP. This is proven by the people who have commented along the lines of "EQ2 was great because it was a good PVE MMO with PVP, not just because of the PVP. That is a correct statement. So by effectively segregating PVP progression and PVE progression along the lines of gear, you're removing a large chunk of the ability to show off your total accomplishment in the world of Norrath, and replacing it with a chance to show off your accomplishment in PVP alone. And as we can (mostly) agree, EQ2's PVP alone is not incredibly impressive or fun. Not without the PVE world behind it. Top end raider? Too bad, no PVP gear. Your accomplishments mean nothing. Go farm PVP gear. New expansion? First to clear all of the heroic content, despite all odds? Too bad. It means nothing in PVP. Go farm PVP gear. This is the world that was created with the gear segregation. The removal of crit mit functionality in PVP, following TSO, where raiders were the most powerful in the history of EQ2, felt like castration. And heroic gear didn't stand a chance. The only option was to farm. Obtain the gear. Then you can compete again. Then you can PVP. Battlegrounds just happened to be a place where that was possible. So blame the gear and the rest of that list. Those are the issues that need to be addressed. First and foremost.
I geared up every xpac by participating as little as possible in bg. I ran maybe 20-30 bgs prior to this xpacs release. Being on the side with the zerg is extremely boring. So I switched sides whenever one side had too many. Wasnt long ago that you could run all 3 wf and get end game tokens. I could duo t4 and t7 in about 11 minutes then log into t9 and catch the end. No zerg required. You really are disconnected with the reality of what pvp is, was and will be maerg. I dont blame you for being mistaken but you are postulating on something you did not participate in. If pvp gear was available as far back as eof, and could kill end game raiders, I think the discussion ran off the rails and aint comin back. Who what and why of why pvp gear has whtver stats is irrelevant at this point. I personally dont blame bg for the fall of nagafen. This game is long in the tooth. I was under the impression that eq2 had less players than eq1. It just seems pvp server was the hardest hit and the biggest nail in the coffin was gear seperation imo. Nothing short of a miracle will bring them folks back. If the devs pull a rabbit out of their hat and create the best pvp of all time maybe.
Maergoth I really do not understand how you can say that one person does not know what they are talking about but agree with someone else that is saying the same thing. While yes I am not listing everything that contributed to the fall of red servers which is the list posted above. I am saying that it all started with BG's. . Here is a post in the official archived forums from a Blue Player saying exact opposite of what you are saying about PvE geared players rolling PvP geared players https://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/index.php?threads/nagafen-and-nox-pvp-versus-pve.482208/ another https://forums.station.sony.com/eq2...the-beginning-of-bg-is-not-fun-at-all.482141/ another https://forums.station.sony.com/eq2...afen-from-bgs-or-nerf-their-proc-gear.482147/ I can find more but I am sure by this point you understand that you are miss informed. As for your gear assertions again I tell you that until PvE players said asked for gear separation we did not have it........ PvP gear in TSO was on par with TSO raid gear in PvP. SF PvP gear on red servers was on par with SF Raid Gear on red servers. Which was a problem for PvE players because you could go get PvP gear and head into raids skipping progression. I could go find the threads about it but at this point I am sure you will see that the other site as I said is not the best source for information on this matter. The reason it was a good source back in the day pre ROK/TSO was due to people at that site had more ""information"" than the average player. That ended well before BG's though so any ""real"" information you find there is skeptical at best and should be looked at accordingly ( Oh and FYI when the fall out happened the Devs stopped looking at the site for player feed back they only looked in the official forums again making your assertions that what you are saying is correct even more miss guided and incorrect )
Yah, I remember the skipping ahead part. In truth, I dont think anyone did it, but you could get 40% crit mit from just the pvp chest piece. I was in the second raid guild in progression at the time and 2 players had the chest piece. The tokens were quite a grind and most raiders avoided pvp like the plague.
You're again looking at average pve gear versus average pvp gear. You're not considering raid gear. Raid gear, especially the best raid gear, dominated PVP gear. Especially in battlegrounds. Absolutely destroyed it. I know this, because I was there using it and destroying people with PVP gear.
BGs was the end of Nagafen I was there and watched the population of Nagafen go to BGs VS overland play. Those that spent time there used it as a grind to get gear. I am an OLD player. RL OLD , as well as been with eQ2 since launch. Spent the majority of time on Venekor and Nagafen. I don't pretend to know the ins and out of gear or the mechanics. I just know it was Fun. And the population was high. Gear was gear. I would get ganked and die, but you know that was part of the game. I didn't whine and leave the server because people killed my toon over and over. It was exciting and PVE play just didn't compare anymore. It is sad to see the demise. Merge servers. I like EQ2 and would suffer the PVE life . I know it will never go back to what we remember. Those that weren't there or spent a long period of time there will never understand our love for PVP because BG is Not PVP
Spent some more time in the official archived forums looking for this raid geared players are destroying PvP geared players threads and not seeing them........... The only PvE gear is better than PvP issues I see are from the start of DOV ( well after the time you are talking about and nly until the PvP gear was released 6+ months later) and level 89's wearing lv 85+ gear and destroying lv 30's in the agnostic BG's I have no doubt that you were in Raid gear and fighting players from red servers and killing them they more than likely did not have full PvP gear or were in the wrong tier gear or as many did push an alt to cap run BG to get more tokens to spend on mains cause of the daily quest reward. Happens all the time but I can tell you this I never had a problem with a PvE geared player other than in DoV before the PvP gear was launched ( again well after the time you are talking about )
The procs from underfoot alone disagree with you. Courageous Charge doing 50 to 70 percent of the parse, tribunal cloak chain stunning.. Huge encounter procs from set bonuses. None scaled with pvp. And, I could be wrong, but I believe critical mitigation still functioned in pvp for the first month or so of Battlegrounds. Resulting in hilariously weak pvp gear. Also worth note that the TSO raid gear, avatar especially, had huuuge critical mit on it.. Which plenty were using into SF.
