Most Brawlers have caught up to plate tanks in Mitigation.

ARCHIVED-Rasttan · Jul 2, 2012

Bruener wrote:

“Novusod wrote:

“For Years there was a Plate Tank monopoly going. In EoF, Rok, and TSO nobody used a brawler as the MT and very few were even used as OT. The Plate tanks had full spectrum domination monopoly of raid tanking. At no point in either SF or DoV was there ever a Brawler monopoly. Some of the the top raid guilds temporarily used a brawler MT to tank some very specific mobs. As soon as those mobs were on farm status those same guilds went back to using there plate tanks again. In the middle and lower teir raid guilds a variety of brawlers and plate tanks were used through out the so called DoV brawler era. That is the definition of ballance though.

DoV was not a time of brawler domination but a time of ballance when the plate tank monopoly breifly disappeared so that not every single guild used plate tanks to steamroll all the raids in the entire game. They had to say hey maybe that brawler we have had sidelined for the last 4 years might be of some use.

Since then there have been enough crocodile tears on this forum to fill the ocean. If a brawler tanks a mob before a plate tank does than suddenly the sky IS Falling. Oh the horror of a brawler tanking something. How dare those uppity brawlers tank a raid, don't they know we plate tanks have a monopoly. What a bunch of babies those who came to the forums to whine about brawlers have been. They could not stand even the slightest competition. Not one of them would have lasted 5 minutes as brawler playing in RoK.

Really I guess they get their wish though. The Plate tank Monopoly is returning in GU64.”

You have probably the worst perception on how DoV has actually been working.
There is a reason progression guilds are using 1-2 Brawlers for everything. If things were balanced like you say than guilds would not have switched their rosters at all from SF. Balance would have meant utilizing the same tanks and no need to change. As soon as DoV hit it was blatantly obvious that if you wanted to progress as fast as possible as a guild you had to switch to using Brawler tanks. This has not changed at all since DoV launch and as Buffrat said in another thread it probably won't change at all going forward because despite what Brawlers lose, they are still ahead.
Basically it finally hit a peak when Developers specifically asked Testers for Skyshrine not to use Brawlers on the content at all because of how OP'd they are. It was impossible to put out balanced content when 2 of the tanks just make everything way easier.
The changes coming in 64 are much needed changes and I am glad to see that SOE did not overdue it since there are a few GOOD brawlers out there that will still be GOOD, but its just enough to clear out the handful of raiders that obviously are playing a class that is grossly OP'd making up for a shortfall in skill.”

I never agree with Bruener but I guess theres allways 1 time, what he says here is exactly correct everyone knows brawlers had it easy in DoV, and the smart ones know we wont be broke after these changes.

ARCHIVED-Rasttan · Jul 2, 2012

Beko@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Just because your brawler couldn't MT, doesn't mean others couldn't.
Also, look above.”

Pretty sure I tanked everything there was for several years, what did you tank?

ARCHIVED-BChizzle · Jul 2, 2012

Novusod wrote:

“For Years there was a Plate Tank monopoly going. In EoF, Rok, and TSO nobody used a brawler as the MT and very few were even used as OT. The Plate tanks had full spectrum domination monopoly of raid tanking. At no point in either SF or DoV was there ever a Brawler monopoly. Some of the the top raid guilds temporarily used a brawler MT to tank some very specific mobs. As soon as those mobs were on farm status those same guilds went back to using there plate tanks again. In the middle and lower teir raid guilds a variety of brawlers and plate tanks were used through out the so called DoV brawler era. That is the definition of ballance though.

DoV was not a time of brawler domination but a time of ballance when the plate tank monopoly breifly disappeared so that not every single guild used plate tanks to steamroll all the raids in the entire game. They had to say hey maybe that brawler we have had sidelined for the last 4 years might be of some use.

Since then there have been enough crocodile tears on this forum to fill the ocean. If a brawler tanks a mob before a plate tank does than suddenly the sky IS Falling. Oh the horror of a brawler tanking something. How dare those uppity brawlers tank a raid, don't they know we plate tanks have a monopoly. What a bunch of babies those who came to the forums to whine about brawlers have been. They could not stand even the slightest competition. Not one of them would have lasted 5 minutes as brawler playing in RoK.

Really I guess they get their wish though. The Plate tank Monopoly is returning in GU64.”

Pretty sure I MT'ed all the content as a brawler during those expansions you listed and also parsed at the top of the tanking world. It is funny how people change and make up history based on their own bias.
TSO and RoK strikethrough hurt brawler tanks until they could get their mit levels high enough then they were fine, it was a gear issue not a tank mechanics issue. Back then the major issue for brawlers wasn't survivability it was that we had to turtle so bad agro was an issue (primarily ae agro). Plate tanks were balling in offensive back then getting full benefit from avoidance and dpsing while we were tied to our defensive stance. Brawlers were more OP in SF than they were in DoV the world just hadn't caught on yet once they nerfed the mit increase bug things leveled out some (I was running around with 20k mit and 80%+ avoid in SF and basically unkillable.)

ARCHIVED-Novusod · Jul 2, 2012

Bruener wrote:

“You have probably the worst perception on how DoV has actually been working.
There is a reason progression guilds are using 1-2 Brawlers for everything. If things were balanced like you say than guilds would not have switched their rosters at all from SF. Balance would have meant utilizing the same tanks and no need to change. As soon as DoV hit it was blatantly obvious that if you wanted to progress as fast as possible as a guild you had to switch to using Brawler tanks. This has not changed at all since DoV launch and as Buffrat said in another thread it probably won't change at all going forward because despite what Brawlers lose, they are still ahead.
Basically it finally hit a peak when Developers specifically asked Testers for Skyshrine not to use Brawlers on the content at all because of how OP'd they are. It was impossible to put out balanced content when 2 of the tanks just make everything way easier.
The changes coming in 64 are much needed changes and I am glad to see that SOE did not overdue it since there are a few GOOD brawlers out there that will still be GOOD, but its just enough to clear out the handful of raiders that obviously are playing a class that is grossly OP'd making up for a shortfall in skill.”

So what you are saying is guilds that were using zero brawlers in SF got upset they finially had to recruit one in DoV. Your bias is so thick you don't even know what you are saying. Content was ballanced arround having at least one brawler in the raid the same way content is ballanced arround have bards and enchanters in the raid or a certain number of healers. Take away the key classes and those fights quickly become impossible. It is that way by design.

The testing methodology of class exclusion is so assine I don't even know where to begin. What if the devs said test the content without using without Crusaders. Where would you be now if they decided nerf your class into oblivion because a pick up raid of testers could not defeat content that was designed arround having a crusader in the raid. It is clear you do not understand any type of scientific testing methodology.

ARCHIVED-meidang · Jul 2, 2012

Hey Bchizzle TSO was strikethough Not RoK but your right it wasnt really a tanking issue, it was a total failure on SoE's part by giving Plate gear away like free candy that boosted plate tanks avoid to 60+% self buffed and they could get this gear in just about any RoK zone, 95% of any good brawler gear was tucked away in a raid zone, not a instance like the plate tank gear was, so that meant a plate tank could just run a few instances and get some loving, brawlers had to have a guild or raid willing to drag their butt to a raid zone an hope something drops the 1st 3 or 4 raids to help them out, no guilds going to drag gimpness to 20+ raids , point is plate tanks had alot more options on instance gear then brawlers, yes we had loot in the instances but it wasnt good enough to do anything in a raid but die.
Bet ya , you ran a different toon, ( didnt you have a healer then?) and got some gear for ya brawler that way, or your guild just dealt with your gimpness till you got better raid gear, , AS for other Xpacs, SF to current, yeah Brawlers had some love in SF, our gear dropped way more often ( plates freaked) but what they missed out on is their gear did the same thing for years and now they get to see an feel what we did back then. and the cried like lil girls about it, God man more brawler gear, well us brawlers said the same thing for years about plate tanks. One of the biggest difference in this game is about who you hang out with, you hang out with peeps that will help you do the hardest content you will be rewarded with better loots then say hanging with peeps that never raid an never hit the hardest instances,
, Most of the best Brawlers WW got where they are for 2 reasons 1 they applied themselves, 2 they were a part of guild/team that kicked butt, no scrub guilds,, that alone can make or break the quality of you toon, . for me i have been on Both sides of that example( hardcore an casual), not many of the best brawlers can say that, they were always teamed up with hardcore players and who your team is does matter, and like i said before if it anit broke dont fix it, now plates do need some help , but nerfing us to help them is total fail,. just boost them up a bit an call in a day,,

ARCHIVED-Bruener · Jul 2, 2012

Novusod wrote:

“Bruener wrote:

“You have probably the worst perception on how DoV has actually been working.
There is a reason progression guilds are using 1-2 Brawlers for everything. If things were balanced like you say than guilds would not have switched their rosters at all from SF. Balance would have meant utilizing the same tanks and no need to change. As soon as DoV hit it was blatantly obvious that if you wanted to progress as fast as possible as a guild you had to switch to using Brawler tanks. This has not changed at all since DoV launch and as Buffrat said in another thread it probably won't change at all going forward because despite what Brawlers lose, they are still ahead.
Basically it finally hit a peak when Developers specifically asked Testers for Skyshrine not to use Brawlers on the content at all because of how OP'd they are. It was impossible to put out balanced content when 2 of the tanks just make everything way easier.
The changes coming in 64 are much needed changes and I am glad to see that SOE did not overdue it since there are a few GOOD brawlers out there that will still be GOOD, but its just enough to clear out the handful of raiders that obviously are playing a class that is grossly OP'd making up for a shortfall in skill.”

So what you are saying is guilds that were using zero brawlers in SF got upset they finially had to recruit one in DoV. Your bias is so thick you don't even know what you are saying. Content was ballanced arround having at least one brawler in the raid the same way content is ballanced arround have bards and enchanters in the raid or a certain number of healers. Take away the key classes and those fights quickly become impossible. It is that way by design.

The testing methodology of class exclusion is so assine I don't even know where to begin. What if the devs said test the content without using without Crusaders. Where would you be now if they decided nerf your class into oblivion because a pick up raid of testers could not defeat content that was designed arround having a crusader in the raid. It is clear you do not understand any type of scientific testing methodology.”

Good guilds already had a Brawler on their roster.
Really I can't even understand what you are trying to say here. Your class is OP'd. Your class will still be OP'd after gu 64. You quitting because your class is only OP'd instead of godly OP'd is laughs.

ARCHIVED-Caethre · Jul 2, 2012

Bruener wrote:

“Your class is OP'd. Your class will still be OP'd after gu 64. You quitting because your class is only OP'd instead of godly OP'd is laughs.”

(( The funny thing is, all of this was and still is a lie.
What you want, of course, is that other fighter classes are not even CONSIDERED as MT for groups and raids if there is an SK available, you want the rest of us grateful for breadcrumbs, as in your eyes we deserve nothing more than made-up second and third string roles.
It is all pretty obvious what you want.
Outside HM raiding, the fighters are closer to balanced now than they have ever been, and the strongest of the pack still remains your class. Any whining about other classes being "overpowered" and calling for them to be nerfed is just petty class jealousy.
You need to follow the advice in your own signature, Bruener, because you have no interest in balance, only in making SKs even more overpowered again ))

ARCHIVED-Daecollo2 · Jul 3, 2012

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Bruener wrote:

“Your class is OP'd. Your class will still be OP'd after gu 64. You quitting because your class is only OP'd instead of godly OP'd is laughs.”

(( The funny thing is, all of this was and still is a lie.
What you want, of course, is that other fighter classes are not even CONSIDERED as MT for groups and raids if there is an SK available, you want the rest of us grateful for breadcrumbs, as in your eyes we deserve nothing more than made-up second and third string roles.
It is all pretty obvious what you want.
Outside HM raiding, the fighters are closer to balanced now than they have ever been, and the strongest of the pack still remains your class. Any whining about other classes being "overpowered" and calling for them to be nerfed is just petty class jealousy.
You need to follow the advice in your own signature, Bruener, because you have no interest in balance, only in making SKs even more overpowered again ))”

SKs are the Worst of all Tanks.

ARCHIVED-Tuckker · Jul 3, 2012

Beko@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Bruener wrote:

“Your class is OP'd. Your class will still be OP'd after gu 64. You quitting because your class is only OP'd instead of godly OP'd is laughs.”

(( The funny thing is, all of this was and still is a lie.
What you want, of course, is that other fighter classes are not even CONSIDERED as MT for groups and raids if there is an SK available, you want the rest of us grateful for breadcrumbs, as in your eyes we deserve nothing more than made-up second and third string roles.
It is all pretty obvious what you want.
Outside HM raiding, the fighters are closer to balanced now than they have ever been, and the strongest of the pack still remains your class. Any whining about other classes being "overpowered" and calling for them to be nerfed is just petty class jealousy.
You need to follow the advice in your own signature, Bruener, because you have no interest in balance, only in making SKs even more overpowered again )”

SKs are the Worst of all RAID Tanks.”

I tend to find Zerkers the absolute worst of the raiding tanks .. followed very closely by 75% of the Poorly played Guardians. SK's are kings in Heroics and will become even more-so after GU64, along with becoming a viable Raiding MT/OT/DPS option.

ARCHIVED-BChizzle · Jul 3, 2012

Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:

“Beko@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Bruener wrote:

“Your class is OP'd. Your class will still be OP'd after gu 64. You quitting because your class is only OP'd instead of godly OP'd is laughs.”

(( The funny thing is, all of this was and still is a lie.
What you want, of course, is that other fighter classes are not even CONSIDERED as MT for groups and raids if there is an SK available, you want the rest of us grateful for breadcrumbs, as in your eyes we deserve nothing more than made-up second and third string roles.
It is all pretty obvious what you want.
Outside HM raiding, the fighters are closer to balanced now than they have ever been, and the strongest of the pack still remains your class. Any whining about other classes being "overpowered" and calling for them to be nerfed is just petty class jealousy.
You need to follow the advice in your own signature, Bruener, because you have no interest in balance, only in making SKs even more overpowered again )”

SKs are the Worst of all RAID Tanks.”

I tend to find Zerkers the absolute worst of the raiding tanks .. followed very closely by 75% of the Poorly played Guardians. SK's are kings in Heroics and will become even more-so after GU64, along with becoming a viable Raiding MT/OT/DPS option.”

Guardians have been top of the tanking food chain forever. Zerkers and SK's cant be touched by any other tanks when it comes to OT's, yes they arent as effective as an MT but can still get the job done.

ARCHIVED-Daecollo2 · Jul 3, 2012

BChizzle wrote:

“Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:

“Beko@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Bruener wrote:

“Your class is OP'd. Your class will still be OP'd after gu 64. You quitting because your class is only OP'd instead of godly OP'd is laughs.”

(( The funny thing is, all of this was and still is a lie.
What you want, of course, is that other fighter classes are not even CONSIDERED as MT for groups and raids if there is an SK available, you want the rest of us grateful for breadcrumbs, as in your eyes we deserve nothing more than made-up second and third string roles.
It is all pretty obvious what you want.
Outside HM raiding, the fighters are closer to balanced now than they have ever been, and the strongest of the pack still remains your class. Any whining about other classes being "overpowered" and calling for them to be nerfed is just petty class jealousy.
You need to follow the advice in your own signature, Bruener, because you have no interest in balance, only in making SKs even more overpowered again )”

SKs are the Worst of all RAID Tanks.”

I tend to find Zerkers the absolute worst of the raiding tanks .. followed very closely by 75% of the Poorly played Guardians. SK's are kings in Heroics and will become even more-so after GU64, along with becoming a viable Raiding MT/OT/DPS option.”

Guardians have been top of the tanking food chain forever. Zerkers and SK's cant be touched by any other tanks when it comes to OT's, yes they arent as effective as an MT but can still get the job done.”

Bruisers are amazing OTs.

ARCHIVED-Bruener · Jul 3, 2012

BChizzle wrote:

“Guardians have been top of the tanking food chain forever. Zerkers and SK's cant be touched by any other tanks when it comes to OT's, yes they arent as effective as an MT but can still get the job done.”

OT what? Brawlers still take significantly less damage needing less heal attention while OT'ing. Have plenty of tools to grab up either those single big OT mobs or plenty of tools to grab up those AE add fodder while the raid burns them.
Really all Fighters are AMAZING at OT'ing.
Don't you OT? Aren't a lot of guilds specifically using a Brawler to MT and a Brawler to OT?
Not going to argue that Guards aren't sitting pretty. But to try and silently down play how far ahead Brawlers are is just silly.

ARCHIVED-BChizzle · Jul 3, 2012

Bruener wrote:

“BChizzle wrote:

“Guardians have been top of the tanking food chain forever. Zerkers and SK's cant be touched by any other tanks when it comes to OT's, yes they arent as effective as an MT but can still get the job done.”

OT what? Brawlers still take significantly less damage needing less heal attention while OT'ing. Have plenty of tools to grab up either those single big OT mobs or plenty of tools to grab up those AE add fodder while the raid burns them.
Really all Fighters are AMAZING at OT'ing.
Don't you OT? Aren't a lot of guilds specifically using a Brawler to MT and a Brawler to OT?
Not going to argue that Guards aren't sitting pretty. But to try and silently down play how far ahead Brawlers are is just silly.”

Quit with the lies already they are tiring. Zerkers and SK's are miles ahead of other classes for grabbing up swarms of adds without any effort and make the best OT's yes bruisers can OT as well but SK's and zerks are better. Much like all fighters can OT so can all fighters MT stop trying to act like your class is horrible the only thing horrible about it is the way you specifically play SK.

ARCHIVED-BChizzle · Jul 3, 2012

Honestly Bruener just wants things back to how they were when you could have an SK just tank everything and be the MT and OT all at once and there wasn't any use for any other tanks in raids. He will cry and say how brawlers were OP in DoV but I don't recall any brawler being both MT and OT at the same time right through the DOV expansion the way SK's were from TSO through SF.

ARCHIVED-Fairin · Jul 9, 2012

will take a skilled tank of whatever class than the current community flavor

ARCHIVED-Yimway · Jul 9, 2012

Fairin wrote:

“will take a skilled tank of whatever class than the current community flavor”

I find the best tanks already play one of every fighter, so we take a skilled tank and the one with the best tools.
But in regards to this discussion, we run Monk / Guard / Zerker / Pally
We never have the Pally or Zerker MT, but any of the 4 might be the OT, just depends o nthe fight or the night. But when you have massive adds that matter and need to be tanked, the zerker and pally do a far better job than the other 2. When you have a big single with predictable damage output the monk and guard excel.
In my mind, thats balance, and all these changes are significantly impacting this other than the guard and monk will be more interchangeable on HM than they currently are.

ARCHIVED-Boli32 · Jul 9, 2012

Atan@Unrest wrote:

“Fairin wrote:

“will take a skilled tank of whatever class than the current community flavor”

I find the best tanks already play one of every fighter, so we take a skilled tank and the one with the best tools.
But in regards to this discussion, we run Monk / Guard / Zerker / Pally
We never have the Pally or Zerker MT, but any of the 4 might be the OT, just depends o nthe fight or the night. But when you have massive adds that matter and need to be tanked, the zerker and pally do a far better job than the other 2. When you have a big single with predictable damage output the monk and guard excel.
In my mind, thats balance, and all these changes are significantly impacting this other than the guard and monk will be more interchangeable on HM than they currently are.”

Whilst people have a case for zerkers not being able to MT *everything*; a Pally *should* be part of the MT rotation (as one of the defensive tanks; that in itself is proof of the classes being out of whak.

ARCHIVED-Yimway · Jul 10, 2012

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

“Atan@Unrest wrote:
Whilst people have a case for zerkers not being able to MT *everything*; a Pally *should* be part of the MT rotation (as one of the defensive tanks; that in itself is proof of the classes being out of whak.”

I think you'ld have to give up amends and quite a few ae abilities to make that arguement.
It is wrong for the class to be one of the best raid AE tanks and a solid ST raid tank at the same time. Their heavy AE focus on their abilities and what a solid ae amends target provides them makes them one of the best at dealing with ae add situations, and the ability to do that in full defensive build behind a shield as compaired to how a zerker approaches the same scenario.
As I see it, there are 6 classes, and 3 of them are now ST/MT focused and 3 of them are AE/OT focused. The brawlers and Guard do a better job at tanking Dagarn Hm, and the crusaders and zerker to a far better job at tanking the adds. Can we swap positions in a pinch? Yeah we can try, but its signficantly harder for both of us trying to do what the other is designed for.
Some people think balance means every tank can do ever job equally, I dont subscribe to that camp myself.
For the record, I have no issues with the pally being re-tooled ground up to be a MT alternative, but at the same time we're going to have to move bruiser to an ae tank sollution to keep the overall archtype balanced 3/3.
As I see it, tank balance overall is better than its been in ages. If anyone needs some attention its how SK's can do a slightly better job at surviving while ae tanking. As they have tools for it, but those tools aren't up enough. I could see an arguement for some changes there. The trick is accomplishing this without making them godmode heroic tanks again.

ARCHIVED-Aull · Jul 10, 2012

Atan@Unrest wrote:

“Some people think balance means every tank can do ever job equally, I dont subscribe to that camp myself.
For the record, I have no issues with the pally being re-tooled ground up to be a MT alternative, but at the same time we're going to have to move bruiser to an ae tank sollution to keep the overall archtype balanced 3/3.
As I see it, tank balance overall is better than its been in ages. If anyone needs some attention its how SK's can do a slightly better job at surviving while ae tanking. As they have tools for it, but those tools aren't up enough. I could see an arguement for some changes there. The trick is accomplishing this without making them godmode heroic tanks again.”

Well stated Atan. I as well do not subscribe to that camp either. I think that when the game was young and still progressing with lots of content of every type that the six fighters had more individuality. Now that the game has aged and end game seems to be more about raiding and raid zones is why the fighters are being pushed to be able to do every job equally.
I don't like that thought because in doing so it has taken what made each fighter different and piegoned holed them into one mold.
In the real world not every person wins and gets a ribbon but that seems to be what players in eq2 want at least for the fighter arch type.

ARCHIVED-Daecollo2 · Jul 10, 2012

Wow, today I've gotten kicked out of a group twice and replaced with a Monk, second time a guardian.

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