Most Brawlers have caught up to plate tanks in Mitigation.

Beko@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Thats pretty silly unless they just don't like you personally... I mean everyone can tank heroic content with ease...

Nah, HM Heroic (Elements of War.)

Atan@Unrest wrote:

My thinking is, and always has been there are 3 defensive tanks, and 3 offensive tanks.
Pally, Guard, and Monk all trade off damage abilities for more defensive tools and the other 3 do the opposite. Pally has a couple more AoEs, Guards have a couple more stoneskins and Monks have more snap tools but they should be equal near as possible into the MT role.
A Bruiser will outperform a pally in OT duty with multiple adds whilst doing more DPS, giving better utility and generally offer more suvibility should they need to pick up the main mob. They already HAVE the tools to be the AoE tank - having multiple AoEs does not mean you can survive and hold agro off multiple adds.
If a class has literally traded out damage abilities, and even reduced damage based abilities for more "defensive" tools you should expect that they'll land in the role of a defensive and... MT role - except they do not. The case of having your cake and eating it is precisely the problem of tank balance. Zerkers, SKs and Bruisers have at various times been the prefered MT class AND they can do significantly more DPS than their more defensive counterparts.
Truefully I'll gladly drop Amends; half our AoEs and our so-called "overpower healing abilities" for a couple of defensive tools which actually do the job they are supposed to.

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

I completely understand, and thats what it would take to make the change. I don't think you'd get the majority of the pallies to agree with ya though =/
I do find that bruiser in your example, when fighting adds that matter, when they trend to survivability they don't hold the ae agro against a full ae burn from the raid. I always seem some of the mobs peel off of them where if I put a pally or zerker on those adds and don't see any problems.
Maybe all the bruisers I've known sucked? I can't say. Certainly they did great when the adds weren't tough, but into the HM content they're ability to lock down 4+ mobs to an all out raidwide burn wasn't the same as the true AE tanks.

SOE Removing Brawler's ST immunity is OK to me. It should be expected.
But nerfing brawler's tenacity and changing tag team is NOT OK to me.
Because brawler is expected to be best as a tank in emergency.
Instead of those nerfs, they should simply reduce brawlers block chance and see what will happen.
And maybe giving more blue AoEs or hate transfer tools to brawler is nice compensation for no-more-braweler-MT-nerfs.

Also You can say it is a Guardian's issue at the same time because Guardian is not very tough when it comes to surviving through enemy's massive autoattacks.
This caused some issues in sentinel's fate when Zerker's Adrenaline/VoD and SK's 3 death saves sometimes made them much better than Guardian as raid MT.
Guardian's survivability focused on 'predictable spikes' too much, which sometime causes fighter balancing issues.

EverDog wrote:

More and more on fights that matter, we're running both a guard and monk in mt group. We can easily flip the mob around as needed to block prevent everything and let the monks superiour auto attack avoidance handle the longer durration of the fight.
Also, SoE has clued in on how to make this harder. What many don't understand is the casting time of Tower of Stone is really, really long compaired to most fighter blocks (1 second). Adding damage that needs to be blocked on abilities with 1s cast times from the mob makes preventing that predictable damage on the guard significantly harder if there is any variable in the mob's timing of the ability.
I see how they are becoming more agile in encounter design to make things more interesting.

Hennyo wrote:

Hennyo is correct, strikethrough ignores riposte, parry, and block. Accuracy ignores dodge and defense.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=481258

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

No.

EverDog wrote:

No, a brawler is not "supposed" to be a "tank in an emergency" we are supposed to be tanks. Period. Every tank should be capable of performing a main tank role, otherwise they are not really tanks, they're just part-timers.
Nerfing brawler block chance is not the appropriate response. We don't need brawlers acting exactly like plate tanks, there are already 4 plate tanks in the game. We need to find ways to maintain the effectiveness of each fighter class, without sacrificing their unique playstyle differences. No point in maintaining 6 tank classes if they all play exactly the same way.
If the nerfs make brawler MT'ing nonviable, they should be reversed. However, I don't believe that to be the case as of now.

there are 4 things I am seeing here as a main problems here.
1st. Loss of ST Immunity on the D Stance. this I think is going to be the largest and longest lasting change I am seeing. I think understand why it is being done and I am not sure I disagree with the reasoning of it. It may be for the health of the game, I am just not sure if this is the best way of doing it. Only time will tell and see if this is the right way of going. Brawlers may need more avoidance boosts to bring balance back to us.
2nd. Brawler's Tenacity has(d) a duration/reuse that was designed to be able to avoid scripts events that needed to be jousted. I can agree that it was broken and needed to be changed so it doesn't feel like it's an exploit using it as it was designed. The changed brawler's tenacity, on test that is probably going live, is not a usable death save with the short duration it has. there is a thread in the test forums about proposed changes that would not be a designed "exploit" and would be a good "death save."
3rd. tag team is not being Nurfed, it is being changed to work in some way that is usable. before this change it was not effective as a hate swap, it would not work consistently ever. I would proffer they fix the original ability, but this is an interesting option. a reliable 8 second avoid with ST Immunity on us and a target, it has many possibilities.
4th. the difference in Mitigation and Uncontested Block between Brawlers and Plate tanks. I don't believe that equally geared/spaced/stanced/buffed plate tank and brawler have relatively equal Mit. I also think that under the same conditions plate tanks have very similar Uncontested Block. I will be testing this after the update goes live. the balance of Mitigation is hard to change throw gear changes. the balance of Uncontested Block though is much easier to change with the protection on shields and the block chance on brawler only fists.