May be because there is nothing in guardian boards except whines against brawlers? Message Edited by selch on 04-28-2006 07:00 AM
The mitigation buff i will give you is fairly useless soloing (even on heorics). But i use it all the time for named in heroic groups and certain mob types like ravesects and HoF or any yellow con+ heroic. The main benefit from it is it saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. It stabalizes the one issue w bruiser tanks the spike damage. Take a parse program and look at how much damage you take in a XP fight over 3 min. It can be beyond 4x your health. Thats the issue with using it a good bruiser know when to use it and when not too. its an invalueable tool that many bruisers Love to use. If you don't see its value its generaly your lack of playstyle or simply because your one of the bruisers(fighter) who think they are a scout and never tank. So again leave my mitigation buff alone. Go switch to a monk if you want haste. The fact is w a haste item and a illusinst in group i am fairly close to 100% haste a benefit the monks DONT recieve. And on top of that i have an extra proc and more DPS. Which is harder to raise. A monk going str aa only has 20% dps and if they had a coercer ~45% more for a whooping ~65% Dps boost. Solo monks have more haste yeah but bruiser have the potential to do bettter DPS and tank better. STOP COMPLAINING we have more growth room then monks do and the ability to do more DPS in the long run and the ability to tank better. Furthermore we are better soloing. we can mezz and fear. This allows me to take on heoric multi mob groups w a bit of ease. Genrally its hard to control the damage recieved but with mezz i effectively reduce a heroic dam output by 1/2. We do bettter burst DPS. What that means is by the time stuns wear off most mobs even heroics are almsot dead or alreayed dead. For goodness sake get knockout combo to adept3 /master 1 and burn your combat arts. I found a combo that lets me get thru "most" of my combat arts 2x before it expires. I can take most heroic encounters of even con this way. W/o full fabled/ master gear. So once again we solo better, tank better, and have the ability to raise our dps more. WTH are you complaining. Moorgard is 100% correct we have our pros and cons. We are better dps in situations then monks. We are better tanks in situations then monks. IF you think the monks are better off please for goodness sake leave MY class alone and go play a monk. Message Edited by Gungo on 04-28-2006 07:54 AM
Mitigation is king. You really are playing down this ability. As you state on a 3k hit you are preventing 500 damage (or 450) that is a whack of a lot. Your ability is certainly not a solo tool unless your soloing heroics but its a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good group tool. So let me get this straight... this ability is to withstand the big hits so you won't die as fast right? Because the smaller hits won't kill you before the healers can react, and would never do enough damage to make this anything but a net loss anyways, right? So that means I'd have to find the specific situations where the ~15% mitigation will mean teh difference between being two shotted, and giving my healer(s) time to react. Well for one thing if it's a mob known for big hits, they should already be prepared... or the group should be prepared, with a shaman. Second, what is that magical number? 3k hits? If I have 6k hp, and I'm being hit for 3k then maybe it'd work... so how do I know it's going to be 3k though? What if it crits and throws off my numbers? What if the creature tosses on a dot along with the drain... or he's an SK so I'm hurting myself while I attack it.. draining plus that damage could push me over the edge, despite the mitigation. It's not like this ability mitigates magic damage. We have to predict the future... it's as bad an interupt with a 5s cast time. It's getting to be a VERY narrow field where that extra mitigation would ever be worth it, because in the end, it's not efficient. In fact, it's the first time I've ever seen any game give an ability that made you LESS efficient at your job. All I ever get from using it is healers complaining about running lower on power and wondering why. Every single time I've used it. And I've never had a situation where I was glad I had that extra smidgen of mitigation. We can't rely on 15% more mitigation saving the day... we take the encounters as if I AM going to be twoshotted, because with crits and spells and debuffs, it could happen regardless of any extra mitigation. So in the end I have an ability that pisses off the healers, and threatens a wipe on long fights due to OOP. Mitigation might be King, but Hitpoints are God. You don't kill God to save the King.
Thats the issue with using it a good bruiser know when to use it and when not too. its an invalueable tool that many bruisers Love to use. If you don't see its value its generaly your lack of playstyle or simply because your one of the bruisers(fighter) who think they are a scout and never tank. Come play in my situation. Every time I've used this ability, the healers told me to stop using it, because I was making a difficult situation harder for them. They could handle it without the buff, but not the added drain over time. This ability isn't failing because it's not mitigating the hits, it's failing me or my healers, whichever, because over time it's killing me worse than the mob would have alone. And I have gone over my parses. The only times I've taken more than 2x my health (and even that is pretty rare), is when it's a very long fight (usually 4+ minutes) and the mob is 4 or 5 levels higher than me (so I'm not the ideal tank for it anyways). And these are always named or raid... I've never come close to 4x my health in a regular xp fight. So with parses like that, and healers telling you to "knock it off", how would you come across this ability? I'm sorry if my playstyle involves not getting hit for 4x my health in 3 minutes in regular xp groups.... yeesh. So once again we solo better, tank better, and have the ability to raise our dps more. WTH are you complaining. So once again I repeat how I'm not saying monks are better overall, just that as a guideline, they have a nice ability and in my experience, we have one that isn't and could stand to use some tweaking. Once again I'll repeat that I don't want haste, in fact I said that +DPS would work better in concept. I still love my bruiser, and would never choose monk over it. I prefer the style, the concept, and the abilities. But that's not to say that I think everything is perfect with the class.
try upgrading it to something higher than app4. at adep1-master1, it will boost mitigation nicely, for a recurring power cost lower than your health regen per tick. Think about the way you have to boost in combat health regen if this is still not sufficient. There are items with regen on them. You can respec, and take the health regen bonus instead of the max health. I'm pretty sure that taking the health regen trait in a respec at 70 would MORE than compensate me for the health over time that the spirit line drains when it is up. I've never seemed to have a problem with its recurrent health cost tho. What race did you choose, and which trait choices? You may have made some detrimental choices....
I currently have bruiser and monk alts both at lvl 25ish and trying to decide which one to play. Based on my experience, the above "fix" would just make brawlers more overpowered than monks. Yes monks get a "nice" ability in haste but that is to compensate for the fact that CA damage is measly. Even at 25ish Bruiser CAs do incredibly way more damage and looking at abilities down the line this is only gonna become more pronounced. In many cases, it seems like a waste to even be using monk CAs as just take away from autoattack damage. Regardless of how "nice" it would be to have another +dps boost (and would make my decision about which to play easier) its just not gonna happen. Its only a factor situationally and devs have bigger issues to worry about (including annoying complaints from others about brawler dps). So I would personally just be happy with your massive CAs. For most purposes, the brawler classes do seem relatively balanced all things being equal. It really just seems like what flavor you want your dps in CAs or autoattack. I'm just personally having trouble deciding. Message Edited by dagoo7 on 04-28-2006 09:33 AM
My recurring power cost, only self buffed hp, is 115 hitpoints per tick. When I'm group buffed with my wife's inquisitor, I'm looking at nearly 140. I don't remember what it was when I was raid buffed with three healers. What's the in-combat max regen? 1.5 x level? So at 70 (when I will no doubt have even more hitpoints), I'd have a max regen of 105. I'm still looking at quite a large setback, even if I could find enough regen that stacks. Did you know that Regeneration (and Flowing Thought for that matter) of the same amounts are considered the same spell and won't stack with each other? So three regen 2s will only give me regen 2... I need to find a regen 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Maybe I should convince my wife to play her warden more... i think they have a built in regen in their group buffs (if I remember my fury buffs right). Problem is, this cost will only ever go up, since it's % based. If I got 20k hitpoints, I'd start losing 400 hitpoints per tick, for the same amount of mitigation as before. This wasn't as noticeable a problem at the lower level, but now that we are reaching 10k hitpoints, the discrepency is becoming clearer. Oh, and my choices were always for increasing stamina, with power regen for the two traits. Also, T7 equipment has allowed me to greatly boost my stamina and hitpoints without losing out on the other physical stats.. so max hp would be my focus you could say. Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on 04-28-2006 11:55 AM
FYI: Self-Haste of Monk and Self-Mitigation of Bruisers TAKES same Health and it is 1% of total Health per tick. So I find it unbelievable it takes 62% of your health in 3 minutes fight. Yet may be if you never regen. But yet considering mitigation helps you get lesser damage. You should still be thankful for that. Message Edited by selch on 04-28-2006 10:20 AM
Your supplying bad info Raidi. 1) In combat health regen is 3x lvl at lvl 70 thats 210 hp well beyond the 1% every 6 secs cost for the mitigation buff. 2) FT and HP regen of the same type DO STACK. So 3 regen 2's give you 6 item hp regen. item hp regen has its own cap of (3 x lvl x 0.5). 210 hp regen total per 6 secs. 3) problem is your hp total is essentially capped beyond adding stam to cap and the fact that healers buffs dont stack in the same class. Your reliant upon pure item HP. Even raid buffed yoru hardpressed to sustain anythign over 10k hp. 20k is impossible. In order for the mitigation buff to drain more hp then max in combat hp regen you would need over 21,000 hp. Thats not an easy feat by any means Finally yoru wifes warden won't help you they dont have an in combat HP regen. Furys do however, as do zerkers, bards and another classes i cant recall. Message Edited by Gungo on 04-28-2006 12:52 PM
heres the details, to shed some light on the spirit line - our current t7 upgrade at adept 1 adds 979 mit, adept 3 1142, and master is 1306 - the initial casting cost is 85 health to cast it. It's recurrent health cost is 85 health every 6 seconds. 85 health every 6 seconds isn't killing your healers. It's approximately 1% of my bruisers health in a normal group. That means it's not even denting your normal health regen, either. However, that mitigation buff is definately saving you more than 85 damage every 6 seconds, unless you're fighting low greens or greys. Definately a spell worth having and using regularly.
Gungo, I think you are forgeting that these classes give DPS buffs and or procs (and some of them haste AND dps): Coercer, Dirge, Berserker, Furry, Inquisitor so please dont tell me its "harder" for them to get DPS buffs Hell, if anthing, its easier to for monks to cap because they START out close to 100% haste and with str AA line 20% dps. While you START out with what, 25% dps (thats even if you have master 1) and 15-20% haste from items. Oh ya our UBER procs equal out the eqation, LOL. I love my bruiser and would never switch, but please, that post by Moorgard ignores all the parser FACTS, and I cant just sit here and not say anything when all the data shows otherwise. Tzing Tao
I'm not a bruiser, but I'm assuming your health drain skill does in fact cost 1% of total health... the Monk haste does. If you buff up to 11k hps it costs 110, but it you're at 7700 it costs 77, and so forth... FYI
This skill is only useful when tanking epic mobs (and some hard hitting heroic named like in HoF, but they're very rare)... but 99% of the brusiers do NOT tank them - that makes this skill useless! I'd be very happy if they change this skill to +dps... but I really doubt soe will ever do it Message Edited by QQFatman on 04-28-2006 07:45 PM
I just checked in game, it costs 2% of your max hp every 6sec. Monks' self haste costs 1% max hp every 3sec, so they're basically the same at cost, but monk's one is a toggle skill with no recast.
kk, never noticed a fluctuation in the cost, but It is listed as a health amount cost, not a percentage of health. Either way...even at 2%, this is next to nothing when considering our own health regen in combat. Add a regen item or two, and you're still regenning more than this costs. Take the appropriate trait/trainings and you wont ever worry about this miniscule amount. The damage it saves you from taking from the average encounter will make the healers job much easier than a buff that roughly uses about as much health as your in combat regen provides. However, that being said... you might also want to look at your healers - reactive based healers have a harder time with us than shamans or druids. All healers have 2 major types of heals - temps/inquis have reactives + larger single heals. their reactives mostly go to waste on us. Shamans Ward + heal - much more efficient use of power per healer effort, and druids regen + heal - their regens do not rely on us taking lots of little hits to proc their healing effects. So grab an appropriate healer type as your main healer, preferably one who knows what they are doing, and if they complain about that buff, i'd laugh at em, and replace them with another healer the next chance possible
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maelwys1 wrote: kk, never noticed a fluctuation in the cost, but It is listed as a health amount cost, not a percentage of health. Either way...even at 2%, this is next to nothing when considering our own health regen in combat. Add a regen item or two, and you're still regenning more than this costs. Take the appropriate trait/trainings and you wont ever worry about this miniscule amount. The damage it saves you from taking from the average encounter will make the healers job much easier than a buff that roughly uses about as much health as your in combat regen provides. However, that being said... you might also want to look at your healers - reactive based healers have a harder time with us than shamans or druids. All healers have 2 major types of heals - temps/inquis have reactives + larger single heals. their reactives mostly go to waste on us. Shamans Ward + heal - much more efficient use of power per healer effort, and druids regen + heal - their regens do not rely on us taking lots of little hits to proc their healing effects. So grab an appropriate healer type as your main healer, preferably one who knows what they are doing, and if they complain about that buff, i'd laugh at em, and replace them with another healer the next chance possible -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A level 70 brusier should have at least 6k max hp, so this skill costs 120 hp a tick. At level 70, you have a base in-combat hp regen of 7 a tick. T7 regen items give you about 3-6 a tick in combat hp regen each. So the 2% cost is far fomr "next to nothing," it's very noticeable! Also we cant turn it on and off like monk's self haste buff, becuase it has a 3 mins recast timer! Message Edited by QQFatman on 04-28-2006 08:50 PM
