yes really, someone wielding GBH and BoTH is going to do alot more than someone who just hit T7 and rarely hits diminshing returns in haste and DPS vs using Brakzars cleaver and a crappy buckler. but again it is all what you are willing to give up defense wise and utility in gaining that small amount of DPS, higher tier raiders will notice less of a difference between the 2 than someone who is using mediocre weapons and buffs. there is a large number of variables to take into account so no one spec and wield style will always suit one person vs the next unless they try both and determine which is best for them.
uh, you can easily meet diminishing returns at lvl 50 and i never compared people who had junk legendary to top tier. Equal quality weapons, a buckler spec will always win out.
For sake of argument, isn't it possible to hit the hard cap in both +DPS mods and +Haste mods at the same time, regardless of build? (I don't know, that's why I'm asking). And even if not, it's possible to hit the "wall" in return, where an extra +25 haste or DPS mod means a very tiny increase, fairly easily. If that's the case, then in really does come down to dual wield vs buckler spec. Which is the case for most high end berserkers. On the opposite extreme, if you initially have no haste or DPS mods at all, then haste and DPS mods make a huge difference. But currently, (and ignoring the AGI tree altogether due to how situational it is), I don't think it's possible for a berserker spec'd in STR, WIS, and INT, the best dual-wield DPS setup, to out damage a berserker spec'd in STR, STA, and INT, the best buckler DPS setup. And even if so, the increased damage output wouldn't justify the significant decrease in damage output while tanking with a shield to most Berserkers.
Skel@Butcherblock wrote: This isn't an accurate comparison as your spending AA points to boost the DPS of the Buckler. If we took this above scenario and added in Wis spec for DW, we would get this: DW ((80*1.2)*0.66) *2 = 126.72 DR Almost the same as the buckler. I don't know what the exact multipler on DW is, so if we take the figures from Xalmat's post, we get this: DW ((80*1.2)*0.75) *2 = 144 DR Yep, we've beaten the buckler line!
you do understand that having 20 DPS mod is not a direct multiplier of base damage mod. 60 DPS is not the same as 60 double attack so your 1.2 multiplier doesnt work.
Skel@Butcherblock wrote: Ah, I didn't know that. How does it work then? Is that the same with haste? Regardless, my point still stands that it's not fair to compare the Buckler AA enhancements to a weapon setup without any.
Haste and DPS work on a bell curve, so depending where you are at alread it may give slightly more or drasticly less. Being berserkers we, by default, already have a high DPS mod (im +100 self buffed for example). I would say a typical 70 zerker w/o putting much effort would hit 70+ dps mod(25 from str imbued, 29 from zerk buff, 20 more from adorns, plus any other gearwith +dps which is easy to obtain) I supose if we were naked without any buffs the 1.2 multiplier would work... but thats not what we are testing here =]
Yeah, that makes sense with the DPS and Haste. Technically though my maths is still correct then because we aren't applying any extra variables But yes, I take your point and it's why the Buckler line continues to out parse every other setup. Although we can use maths to prove that other weapon and AA setups can theoretically beat it, in the real virtual world it just doesn't work out that way once you've added in everything else. On another note, I'm currently trying to find a setup using a 2hander which can compare to using a Buckler. I simply won't admit defeat! I just by far prefer the idea of swinging a big sword then running around with a tiny little shield on. We are Berserkers after all! Unfortunately however, there's just nothing which seems to compare to the continual and reliable DPS of the Buckler line. Which is a shame IMO because it takes a lot of variety out of our class.
It is possible to put together a DW build using the same gear that surpasses the DPS of a buckler build. The 2 missing facts are: 1) if you're 1H build does not have any haste for whatever reason, you can move the STA points into INT and gain a ton of haste (very subjective based on group build, AA spec, diminishing returns) 2) Any double attack from other sources(set gear, GBH, illusory arm) will affect the offhand weapon as well. So double attack is doubley effective when you have double the weapons. So, DW would close the gap on the damage difference because of the extra double attacks on the offhand weapon. Chances are that illusory arm will go on a predator, but you could get lucky. But, that's a pure DPS build.
Wilin wrote: 1. I don't think there's any buckler-DPS build that does not use the INT tree (INT 4-4-8 at the least). Tanking builds may not use the INT tree, sure, but a pure DPS build probably will. 2. True enough, but such weapons would be taken on a case-by-case basis. They would be the exception, not the rule. Even then it would need to be a pretty high amount of +doubleattack granted from the weapons--at least 20%--before dual wielding actually surpasses a buckler. Using our hypothetical 80 DR weapon yields, for a weapon that grants 20% double attack: DW 80DR * 1.2 (for 20% double attack) * 0.75 (for dual wield mod) * 2 (for using two weapons) = 144 DR Buckler 80 DR * (1.6 + 0.2 -- see below) = 144 DR Since weapons that grant additional double attack add, not multiply, the base double attack, you would have 60% double attack from buckler, and another 20% from the weapon, for a total of 80% double attack. For a hypothetical 25% double attack 80 DR weapon: DW: 80DR * 1.25 * 1.5 = 150 DR Buckler: 80DR * 1.85 = 148 DR So only for a double-attack mod higher than 20% does dual wielding exceed using a buckler, given identical weapons, haste, and +dps mods. But even in this case, it's a tiny fraction of an increase.
You have no idea what I'd give to have this class be viable without *having* to take the Stamina line. I'd say upping most "high end" Two-Handed weapons to be around 115 dps would be a start. (because my math was done comparing a 115 dps 2h with the GBH). The below gives the edge in pure dps to the 2h weilder, but then also strips away the defensive middle-ground of the Stamina line. This way, there is a viable way to be the raid tank and not lose ANY dps. It should be about choices, not "Do I want to be ****, or do I want to use the stamina line?" But here's an idea, just for gits and shiggles: Wisdom Line: Demolisher's Wisdom - 0/8 Increases the Demolisher's wisdom by 7.0 per rank Punishing Blade - 0/8 Duration: 30 seconds -Deals X-Y damage to target - if Target is under 50% health, deal 2X-2Y damage to target. -Deals X1-Y1 damage to target every 6 seconds - if Target is under 50% health, deal 2X1-2Y1 damage to target every 6 seconds. -Decrease Demolisher's Defense, Block, and Parry by 10% Cleave - 0/8 Increases the Demolisher's chance to double attack by 5.0% per rank -if Two-Handed Weapon Equipped Destructive Flurry - 0/8 Increase the Demolisher's DPS by 2.5 per rank Gives the Demolisher a 1.25% chance on a successful Double Attack to Triple Attack. Demolisher's Fury Removes the penalty on offensive and defensive stances, in addition to the Hold the Line type abilities. ============================================================================ On the math: GBH is 86 DR. You will have 60% double attack with STA3 line + 11.6% for equipping the GBH. 86*(1.6+0.116)= 148 dps New 2H's with a DR of 115. 40% double attack with WIS3 line. 115*1.4 = 161 dps Nothing game breaking - you sacrifice the defense of the buckler for a slight bump in dps. Now, notice I didn't restrict WIS4 to 2H only (though I thought about it!). This would actually be an improvement for the STA users anyway, and give them something to think about before automagically taking STR and INT. [86*(1.716)]+[86*(0.716*0.1)] = 155 dps I think that'd add a bit of spice to everyone's life, and make it so those who don't want to hold a dinner plate, do not have to.
I don't understand why we're going with the basis that DW = DR * 0.75. Sure, it's meant to take into consideration the delay increase of 1 sec per weapon BUT we need to consider that most people can reduce their delay to 1 sec via haste. So, if we had 2x 90 DR weapons with a base delay of 2secs which is increased to 3 and then reduced to 1, the DW calc would be this: DW 90x2 = 180 DR So, theoretically, it would be far better DPS than either buckler to 2H. Thoughts please.
DR is calculated by min damage+max damage divided by delay... when you increase the delay the DR decreases. And the .75 is the formula for the increased delay from DW, its not a flat 1 second. Its also dumb to calculate haste into the equation because either build can have the same amount of haste. Haste has the same universal benefit from a DR standpoint if you are using a 3 second delay or a 1.5. You should really learn mechanics before you post stuff like this
Well..all I can tell you about this subject is. Don't just look at the formulas..try it. I am the MA for my raid guild and I had tried and tried to get more dps and had not really had much success with using a DW or two-hander spec. So I thought I would try going back to the buckler line and really try to see if it would help. I had always felt the buckler line would not help much if you were not getting hit. Well..I copied Skel's achievment line ( sorry Skel) and last night I was truly amazed at my dps. I turned out more dps...made the raid wide parse..was able to take aggro from our MT guardian, all while wielding a dinner plate in my hand. That is something that I had never done before. Even my guild mates noticed about the dps I was pushing. So, needless to say, I think the buckler line is just great. And, Skel, thanks for having your spec available. It just made my zerker so much more fun and usable!!
Skel@Butcherblock wrote: Learning mechanics was the kinda the point of my post. Y'know, free exchange of ideas etc in order to learn and advance. You should really some manners before you post stuff like this... But then of course that would destroy your reputation as the forum troll bully right?
Castonu wrote: Yeah, I think your point is very valid... formulas just never seem to add up to the cold hard reality that we face. Undoubtedly buckler is the best DPS but it seems like fellow Zerks are desperately crying out for some alternative specs and trying theorize a viable alternative. Ultimately I think it's a real shame that we don't have more alternative options.
Castonu wrote: Glad you had good results from it, thats the entire reason i posted it. Keep kicking butt and giving zerkers a good name =] MightyThor wrote: I have already taken the time to figure out the math, post it, and explain it. Then you just say its wrong without understanding the game, reading the math, or even asking politely why we use xx. If you wouldnt call people wrong like you did in your post and instead ask why we use .75 multiplier... you might get a more friendly answer. I also highlt doubt the rest of the community views me as a bully... when is the last time a bully answered whatever question you had about something.
