Leather fighter drops in SF raids...

After one full month of SF raids, I'm still not seeing a problem. The longer I keep track, the more evenly the loot distribution becomes, which is exactly as expected. Ain't statistics fun like that?
Here's what we have after our first 30 days: 81 total armor drops -- 18 plate (8 healer, 10 tank), 25 chain (15 dps, 10 healer), 19 leather (11 healer, 8 brawler), 19 cloth (14 mage, 5 summoner).
For percentages, that tallies up to: Plate: 22.2% (9.9% healer, 12.4% tank) -- Chain: 30.9% (18.5% dps, 12.3% healer) -- Leather: 23.5% (13.6% healer, 9.9% brawler) -- Cloth: 23.5% (17.3% mage, 6.2% summoner).
Two pieces of tank plate have been transmuted, the same piece each time. No other armor types have been muted. No gear goes to alts. This means that 2.5% of our drops were transmuted this month.
The closest thing I can see to a "problem" is the low number of summoner-specific drops we've seen, forcing some of them to take gear without pet-effects. For brawler drops, only one brawler has more than 2 pieces, which is the same as every other class in the raids. Wow. Imagine that.

Iskandar wrote:

so based on your numbers, the raid makeup would be 3 plate tanks, 3 plate healers, 5 bards/rogues/predators, 3 chain healers, 3 leather healers, 2 brawlers, 4 enchaters/sorcerers and 1 summoner.
that 5 fighter raid sounds like a lot of fun.

NaeenSpeedbringer wrote:

Each raid force has two plate tanks and two brawlers (one Monk, one Bruiser) actually. It's a pretty normal setup. /shrug

Our alt bruisers/monks have more gear than my raiding shaman, My templar also has more gear than my raiding shaman. They need to fix the % of the gear dropping to be more in tune with raid force setups

there are 2 mage pet classes and 4 non-pet mages (chanters are not pet classes, although they can cast/charm one - its useless/dead on raids). Actually on an average raid you may have 2 pet mages and 4-6 non-pet mages. So the mage distribution is definitely completely screwed up.

Ebarel wrote:

while i agree with what you are saying and understand that enchanters aren't pet classes, the "pet mage" raid gear has similar "other" stats to the "non-pet mage" raid gear to make it fairly viable for the sorcerers and enchanters.

Iskandar wrote:

i do not agree with you that most raid forces roll with 2 plate tanks and 2 brawlers as part of their 24-person setup.

NaeenSpeedbringer wrote:

Yeah, honestly, most roll 1 tank or 2 if they don't like to switch people around mid zone, the exception being sages.

It's not like there's one and only one viable raid setup

Iskandar wrote:

i don't remember anyone claiming that, so you can stop with the straw man. the majority of raid forces do not use 4 fighters, so it would be nice if the loot system mirrored the majority of raids if they aren't going to use smart loot.

NaeenSpeedbringer wrote:

You implied it actually, with your "that 5 fighter raid sounds like a lot of fun " remark, so you can stop with the ad hominen commentary. The majority of raid drops I have seen do not reflect a bias in favor of fighters of either armor type, and the majority of raid forces I am familiar with have more than just one lone fighter of any class as Erik noted. And thus, I again say it's not like there's one and only one viable raid setup
Tho I do agree, smart loot would be a superior system in general -- however, I can also see how that would render much of the content moot long before new raid content is added. Even without smart loot, and assuming no new raid content is added, with the drops as they are currently for us I can easily see raids being primarily about secondary sets and non-armor items within the next month or two. For smart loot to be truly viable they would need to either add a considerably large number of new drops for each class, with unique effects to set them apart from the existing cookie-cutter archetype ware -- or cut the drop rate of current items considerably and/or increase the reuse timers to force us to hit the same zones until new content is available.
We may not share the same opinion of raid composition, but I'm sure we can both agree that the latter would not be very fun

Iskandar wrote:

No self respecting raid (Minus Sages Fight) Are going to run 3+ tanks

Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:

Opinions vary Considering the content we clear and the speed with which we do it, I see no problems with it whatsoever.

Iskandar wrote:

Any DPS class or even a 2nd bard in those group would be far more benifical than a 3rd or 4th tank

Sure, I bet we could swap half the raid out for higher dps classes if we wanted to be cold uncaring beasts who care little for the people we've gamed with, some for almost ten years, and only focus on raw numbers -- but that's not how we roll
hehe! I soooo couldn't resist saying that!
Besides, it's not like we're short on time or anything.... heck, if ya count both raids I roll with, I hit both Lair and Palace twice a week and Labs 2-4 times a week (depending on timer resets), and I still have three days free and don't have to rush around after work or stay up to some silly hour to make raid. That's pure win-win in my book!
Just out of curiosity, what does raid composition have to do with drop rates in a non-smart loot instance? I'm sure we could discuss raid makeup for pages, and there'd be quite a variety... but what difference does it make to the loot tables? Perhaps this side discussion would be more appropriate in a different thread

Iskandar wrote:

Because raid armor pieces should be weighted drops based on normal raid setups

So whoes raid setups should they use?
Because I could find probably 2/3 raids for everyone that follows your "perfect" setup.
Also whats going to happen in a month when all the scouts are geared out and the mobs are still dropping 60% scout chain...
Try thinking about your stupid idea for two minutes and not letting your greed run riot.
Multiple raiding guilds per server using multiple setups.
So I ask again whoes raid setup do they use?
Yeah lets weigt drops so fighter plate is rare and fighter leather is ultra rare, so after 30 kills the same goddam scout thing drops and gets sold and the fighters are still waiting on theirs, because thats fair.
My guild farmed last night 14 or so mobs, probably 40 odd bits of loot (5 trash drops in Labs), we got 1 brawler weapon and 1 leather fighter drop. But you know what about 50% of that loot went to alts/sold to out of guilds. Why because the RNG likes to do that sort of thing because its evil.
So what should the devs do a month after they implement your idiotic idea and another thread pops up that says "Chain Scout drops in SF raids..."? Change the weighting system again?
Should they change the loot code every month based on who is whining the most or every 2 months?
So Simple Simon for the 100th -ing time try and get it through your skull.
Leave it the way it is and except the RNG is there to slow down you gearing up or add Smart Loot too armour drops.

Ummudien@Guk wrote:

Wow, I'm getting insulted left and right on these forums. It's funny. Lets think through this.
Raid setups:
Healers-6-8(Depending on the encounter)
-2-3 Shamans
-2-3 Clerics
-1-2 Druids
Scouts
-4 bards
-1-2 Rogues
-1-2 Preds
Tanks
-1-2, except sages where you need 3, and maybe use 4 because the boot misses constantly, Any of the tanks work here
Mages
-4 Chanters
-1-2 Summoners
-1-2 Wizards.

This is a rough look at what a typical raid may look like, things do vary depending on, encounter, who is there, who isn't there, or all that, but are you going to argue having 3 tanks in for a mob like Twins united or something of that nature would be more beneficial then having another DPS? Majority of a raid isn't scouts, but tanks are the lowest population in a raid of any of the archetypes. Never should tank gear (Leather or Plate) drop more than anything else if it were weighted to be closer to a typical setup. Also, if you weight it, it doesn't mean it has to be down to the exact number of the classes in a typical raid, you can weight based on a typical raid guild roster with ~28-30 raiders roughly, and balance it from there.

You can look up the actual weighting of items on Zam. For Waansu at least it's 20% scout, 15% chanter/sorc, 10% plate dps, 10% plate tank, 10% leather healer, 10% chain healer, 10% plate healer, 5% leather dps, 5% leather tank, 5% summoner.
Doesn't seem too terrible per normal porportions.

It's missing many of the hard mode encounters especially.