Meh...crying over spilt milk is a waste of time. You can say what you want about your daft monk but I'm sick to death of those who cry about broken crap and making wide generalizations about what I or any others CAN or CAN'T do in EQ2. Go ahead and betray to a bruiser if you yourself can't get into end-game raiding, just quit trying to lump others into the same whiney chair you sit in. Me, I'm always gonna remain hopeful that we will get some nice spells eventually, but if not, I don't give a flying [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Monks have great lore, nice looking gear (considering that godawful Pally hat) and are awesome in bed (larger chi/mojo than anyone else hehe).
Who are you KR? From ur post history on Butcherblock let me take a guess? A retired Guardian? I might be wrong but hey history says it all. Message Edited by scalzo on 06-16-2006 09:00 AM
I do wonder what ever happened to that mass exodus of guardians who made brawlers after LU13. I remeber the ranting and raving how OMG brawlers are the best tank ever. Then how so many gaurds said they are making a brawler so they can see what it is liek to be the best tank class. Sadly all i see is many of those same ex gaurds whining how broken thier brawler is. There are a few exceptions to this rule Colosaltitan is one that comes to mind. Back on topic brawlers DPS in raids is almost identical depending on the groups and buffs. Sometimes a bruiser will outdps you and sometimes a monk will depending on spells and gear and the encounter. I regularly get outdps by the monk in my guild but then again i am building myself to tank.
Fair play G that was quite possibly the best post you ever wrote mate , enlarged the main point here so that the monks here dont take it the wrong way about why you changed
You have a very good point here KR i have been stressing this also for a long time. i feel useless with my monk. (/ducks from all the others gona bombard me for saying that... calling me noob and saying that i dont know how to play my toon) but seriously, us monks dont have GREAT dps nor do we have GREAT tanking abilities. there is no use for us in a raid... i look for groups 24/7 and nobody wants to pick me up cause they have assassins, wizards, conj's, guards, SK, Zerkers.... its a overworked and underpaid class. we dont have any spot to fill unless somone cant fill that last DPS spot or cant find a tank. YES people that know me invite me all the time just because they know how i play but if its just some pickup group, i wont get an invite because most of the eq2 world looks down upon monks... i blieve that there are 2 reasons for this 1) not many people play monks (even bruisers for that matter) 2)we arent really that great at what we are given (in comparison to other classes) KR is right, we need something that will make us NEEDED in a group... so what i can FD the group if things get bad. what other utility do i have besides that and my measly 21% attack speed buff? Neither skill is practical in a raid situation, FD is not a good idea in a raid, 21% HASTE.... i get capped from other buffs so its not really useful. so yes we have decent DPS in raids, we maintain a constant 5-800 DPS depending on the player but besides that where is our role in a raid? can anyone tell me? the only way i got into my raiding guild is that they were new when i got in and so i got myself a firm spot as the MA now... but besides that can anyone tell me what a monks role is in a raid?? remember before answering that question; that almost everyone in this game says "monks are not DPS they are tanks" Message Edited by Taicheese on 06-16-2006 04:32 AM
Gaige has betrayed the monk class and should be forever banned from this forum just kidding but honestly 9k posts man? shouldn't you have written a doctoral thesis instead .... or perhaps you can roll those posts into one somehow I love my PvP monk ... took me a pally,a wiz, a ranger, and a fury to get here and I don't plan on going anywhere. I have to laugh when i see monks crying that bruisers are better, and bruisers crying that monks are better. I think G pointed it out perfectly that they are essentially the same with a few specific differences that cater to playstyle and possibly guild needs but don't make one better than the other.
Wow, that is crazy that you say that. I post 800-1100 DPS on single target raid encounters every single fight. Only a couple scouts can beat me and usually we tie or are within 100dps from each other. And this is with a Paladin, Templar, Mystic, Troub, and either another melee or a mage. So no huge dps increases there... Without the Troub... and a dirge in the mix, or coercer... I do more.... and that's without weapons and the STR/INT aa's Lets see, I also tank Gorenaire with no problem.... Uhmm Uhmm.. I pull every single encounter with flawlessness thanks to Tsunami and Outward (ok ok, a few go bad)... I can take my entire guild around in a raid encounter if we skip mobs and bypass.... I can offtank when the main tank goes down with Tsunami until he gets back up .... ... there is so many F'n uses I can't even list them and i'm wasting my breath on your disgruntled [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 08:08 AM
I think the main point is that Bruisers are superior to Monks, even if the Monk has better gear. I know this because I see the parses, I see the gear and the stats, and I know the skillsets. The brawler situation is not like Bard, Sorcerer, Druid or any other situation out there. Dirges and Troub's are both distinctly necessary, Templars are the better healers while Inquisitors prevail when it comes to DPS and debuffs. I could make this contrast w/ every other complementing class, however I think every one is readily known and obvious. Brawlers - it isn't. Monk is supposed to be the better tank the bruiser the better dps. Many people think this. Fact is however, bruiser is the better tank, slightly better utility and clearly the better dps. They hold aggro better on both solo and grp encounters - raid included, and their mitigation is cleary better. Sure we get more wisdom for resists, but maxing out any resistance on a bruiser is a breeze. Monks do not get immunities which is huge. I spent day one of the Adventure pack angry becasue I couldn't FD/train my way easily through the zone like I could in any other instance in the game. I'm guessing bruiser immunities could help them do this a bit more easily than my monk can, or cannot really do anymore. Also noticed last night in Lab that I died on trash mob pulls that were once cake - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM - as my Tsunami and Outward Calm failed to do anything. I still love playing a Monk, and will always remain a Monk, but it does seem that the Brawler separation continues to grow in opposite directions and could use a slight tweaking. I only know one person who has both a 70 Monk and a 70 Bruiser and he just recently returned to the game. Maybe you can shed some light on this subject for us Syb. Shangortu Kithicor ToV
Isnt it plain to see we rock and you suck or so the general consensus is. Truth is there isnt as much disparity from a monk to a brusier as everyone seems to think an equal equipt monk will tank near enough as good as a brusier the only difference is the mitigation which brusier get more off gives them a slight upperhand though the group dps buff is good even when others say it sucks tell that to an assassin your grouped with :smileyvery-happy: Its always going to be the same arguement monks this brusier that and its never going to change the same arguements are going to rage when avoidance tanking is working along par with mitigation tanking and even then it will be who does this better who does that better. you will always get the same response "learn how to play your class and ...... " At the end of the day both classes are comparible just play whichever suits your play style
I think the main comparison should not be between monk and bruiser, but between brawlers and the rest of the tank classes. Maybe bruisers have a 3 min mitigation buff, but on the long term they share the same problems as we do, which is the unreliability of avoidance compared to mitigation. It has been said previously, at the moment there is no reason why you would want a brawler in your raid (apart from the sad example of the three princes). If you need a tank, either offtank or maintank, get plate. If you need dps, get a real dps class, we cant compete with them. Every class brings something valuable to a raid: Warriors are best tanks, Crusaders just as good and have very nice buffs, healers are well balanced, bards essential utility, enchanters have been fixed i guess, summoners/rogues are debuff/dps classes, and preds/sorcs are pure dps. We don't fit anywhere. We might be decent tanks, but why take a monk if you got a guardian? We do good dps, but we cant replace a ranger. We can do 10s suicide pulls, but pet classes can do the job just as good. And nowadays, almost every class has a pet. We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian.
You just in-validated your entire post in my opinion with the highlighted, underlined statement in yellow. If you think Brusier has even close to the amount of Utility of a monk, you are sadly mistaken. The other highlighted section, is because you aren't that good, I had an easy time doing the same things. You do not need to play a Monk any more. Please betray... I beg you. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 10:15 AM
I've never had a ranger out-dps me post ranger nerf, and I never will. It appears you have little knowledge of high end game, and little knowledge of raiding, especially on the pulling comment. I agree with you on warriors being the best tanks, pallies aint bad either... but DPS is fine. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 10:18 AM
Depends on the ranger. The ranger runs into plateaus. Where without specific upgrades their dps flattens. For instance a ranger who gets the taranix bow summoned T8 ammo and the bow off the monoliths or similar DR bows or specific bows liek the droag proc one. Can not be outdps'd by a brawler.If your ranger uses the grizzzlefang bow and non rare T7 arrows/poisens and you have str AA DPs line or the twin clamities and dps aa's you will outdps the ranger sometimes and only on single targets Message Edited by Gungo on 06-16-2006 10:37 AM
As a monk i'd happily swap tsunami for the mit buff, im pretty sure the mitigation over 3 mins would provide me more protection than 12 secs of no dmg. If my avoidance was more efficent so i didn't have to so heavily rely on my mitigation then the small amount of posatives tsunami provides would seem more practical. Even melee AE's from the trash in labs can get nasty and are unavoidable.... where other melee classes can stay put with the higher mitigation i find myself running back waiting for a heal before i get within range. I love my monk and i love tsunami but that mit buff combined with the way avoidance is working seems to me to give bruisers the edge. I personally dont want to betray but i can understand a lot of the reasons some people have and its a shame to monks all round that bruisers have an advantage and we do not, the debuff alone would be an advantage to my guilds raid and we also have another monk so not much is lost... To answer the OP i'd have to say IMO the sun is just shining very brightly on the bruiser side of the fence so its just looking brighter, but i cling to the hope things will change eventually.
I play a 66 monk and a 64 bruiser, and they are very similar with a few CA differences. Monk is consistent dps with all their haste buffs where as bruisers are splurt damage with thier lack of haste, but with bigger hits. The monk has far more utility with tsunami and group fd. The bruiser has ..... the things that gaige mentioned of why he changed classes. They are so similar that it really depends on what interests you have with their minimal difference in CA's. The gear is the same, both wearing pajamas or druid gear. I outfitted both my toons in exactly the same gear just to see how similar/different they were when they were both 64. Similar aa invested and same mobs being killed. Both could take the same content with the same amount of ease, or difficulty, just two different methods based on CA's and strategy. I personally like my bruiser better for the fact that there are less on the servers than monks. I see them as pissed off drunken brawlers, where as I view a monk as a intelectual fighter (A little RP here, but it suits my interest in the game). Play the toon for what it is, not what you want or envision it to be. Don't complain about your toon not being what you want it to be, becuase every class has a wish list of things they would like different, but no class will ever be everything they wanted and more. Class balance imo is nearly impossible. The only way to completely balance everyone is to give them all the same gear, CA's, strategies, spells, and well..... the same darn toon. There would be a lack of interest in the game if there weren't multiple choices. You have to choose what is right for you, and accept you are not going to be a master of all trades, but rather a specialist in certain aspects of the game. Message Edited by masakre on 06-16-2006 11:25 AM
