Just wondering what other tanks (esp. more defensive ones) thing about it, especially considering adrenaline rush.
Your talking about their ability to effectively solo-heal themselves in heroic content with the cure-spec for durations that no other tank can match without a healer. All the while still doing full damage output as opposed to other classes having to stop all castings? I think it's a bit over-the-top how much their percentage heals do, but see that's the whole point of Paladins and Berserkers. They use their HP as a disposable resource of protection. Guardians are all about preventing damage, which is quite different and they REALLY need a combat-heal. Currently though it is quite viable to have a Paladin OT or Berserker OT as they can be Solo-Healed easier since they can heal-themselves. This is actually beneficial as a guild can bring in another DPS instead of a Healer if they so wish.
Berserkers have been in a bad place for such a long time. Let them have their moment. Also their hate generation is still very iffy. Without any transfers, or abilites to reduce/siphon hate from the group, I struggle depending on the group setup. Its gets stable after i've been beat on a while and got a fair amount of hate from heals/myth but upfront its almost always a struggle.
The HPS are a bit skewed as something like Battle Frenzy is a 30 second percent-based heal, and tanks have a crap ton of total hitpoints to base that percent on. It's really not too much different than things like Divine Aura, or the Brawlers multiple auto-parries... the difference is that it's parse-able because it's a heal instead of a stoneskin or an avoidance. However, I can confirm that a Berserker built for defense and survivability is truly an sight to behold... and it's been a long time coming! It's a nice change to hear players with SKs say, "How the hell did he survive that?" instead of the other way around.
Zerks, are actually doing their job the only problem comes if they start surviving Single-Target and Magic Damage better than their counterpart the Guardian. Each class is built for different things and should reflect as such. Zerkers should feel out of their element if they are facing only one opponent. Zerks are all about the frenzy of a chaotic battle, not the duels (Guardian territory). As such I think they are a "little" too high. Not by much but they should have a bit of a re-examination on how they interact ST, they shouldn't just fold vs Single Opponents but they should have a harder time self-healing.
Berserkers still suffer against strong single opponents and magic damage. Perfect Counter helps against magic damage, but Guardians get that too. Strong hits still eat through Battle Frenzy. With the Guardians ability to convert AE into Flurry, they've been having a better show of single target damage... at least when both warriors are specced for defense/tanking. The gap is probably smaller if the Berserker specs for DPS as many seem to do. With two equivalently geared Warriors, the Guardian will have more hitpoints, and more high-damage absorption options... making things like ToV:VD easier to tank. That's not including the multiple protections for the group that the Guardian has that a Berserker doesn't, like a group death ward, shared avoidance, and damage absorption. I think the big issue is that Berserkers are "close enough" for most fights in single target tanking while dominating in AOE fights. Guardians still protect the group much better than a Berserker.
Definitely Kaberu, that's why I have almost no problems with a Berserker. I think they are a smidge too high due to out-healing healers. I think most just forgot that they are meant to do a lot of Self Healing in the right situations. My only grip so to speak is that Berserkers get a few tools Guardians have but we don't get anything really in reverse. Guardians have been severely lacking a combat heal for years, it's part of what soloing on one makes it so hard. Draconic Shout helps but only if you spec it. I would love to see a few things none of which need to be all-inclusive (these ideas are fine as is not as a group). 1: Hunker Down have more DR for a Guardian, since it can only be up 50% of the time due to it's Recast starting only after it's Termination. With Rooting Mobs being useless now Hunker, heck all Stances for Warriors could use an examination. 2: Champion's Intercpetion... redo the whole thing, currently it's seflless and benefits the Guardian with nothing that his Offense Lines don't add. It also is too unreliable in PvE to be used as a group protection more than once every 240 seconds. Guards jobs are to protect allies and then themselves. They are a bastion of defense, the cornerstone of any group. Berserkers are beings of primal rage and power. Ignoring pain and staying alive when all odds seem against them. ^ at least that is the common perceptions of such rolls. While players cannot be epic-legends of the tales they can fullfill that roll and truth be told they do for the most part. A few problems here and there and I am sure if I spent either a few days clawing through Berserker AA's or playing one for a few months I could start posting about all the problems/worthless AA they have that are not shared with the Guardian.
Make Adrenaline: -50% Damage Reduction instead of "Heals 50% of all damage" That will lower their HPS. The only reason they have high HPS is because their survivability can be parsed, meanwhile other classes just have straight damage reduction. Its the same for Paladins. There defense moves can be parsed.
Which is what I said but it's not a reason to change it. You just have to point out that fact to players that don't understand: Other tanks have similar effective survivability but it just doesn't show in the parse. I think that's the hardest thing to get others to understand, the parse isn't a 100% accurate representation of combat. If I can start a fight by debuffing a mob's maximum health by 1%, it's not going to show up in the parse that the mob just lost a million or two in health due to my actions.
People should stop measuring the value of classes by their obvious parses. Insecure people only want to place themselves on a parse list, and see their names at the top. Real players want to contribute to a group and figure out how to overcome the next challenge. The important thing is the EXPERIENCE-- what it's like to fight different types of encounters in various situations. I run a berzerker, and the "OP" heals have nothing to do with what abilities really mean. They're just a way of determining what kind of encounter mechanics the tank will maintain health against: e.g. under Battle Frenzy lots of little mobs = invincible tank, and 1 hard-hitting boss = timing saves cleverly and hoping my healer is timing his well, too. So when I'm getting hit by like 50 mobs in the Hive, I'm going to show killer high heal numbers in a parser. But I'm not thinking "I'm so uber I should run this zone without a healer." I'm thinking "I'm glad I can give my healer a breather, because in a few minutes half the guys in this PUG are going to be getting blasted by lasers, burnt by Implosion, and exploded by Roc eggs."
So true. That's why I am glad Zerks are finally doing their job. That would gut Adrenaline, Zerks already have pretty decent DR. Having a huge stack of DR sounds more like a Guardian ability anyway. I always have thought that Guards are about Damage Reduction/Prevention while Zerkers are all about ignoring pain and healing through seemingly insurmountable odds. Also it may not do anything but make it harder to realize what they are doing and thereby making it harder to offer feedback on the class.
I think Talath was only trying to make the point that it only seems overpowered because it's parseable. I don't think it was an actual suggestion for the class. Also, I think the zerkers hps is so overpowered that i'm not going to play my zerker this expansion. max hp + mit gear = BORING. For me anyway : )
How about this instead of, as suggested, rendering berserkers immune to damage 50% of the time: Change Adrenaline to heal 50% of all damage with a heal cap of 5% of the berserker's max HP. Change Battle Frenzy to have a 25% chance per hit to proc its current healing and 30% damage reduction. End result: works great for tanking masses of mobs, but weakens berserkers vs individual, hard-hitting mobs.
Adrenaline used to be just like that: 50% damage reduction 50% of the time (30 sec duration, 30 sec downtime after that). It was nerfed because it rendered berserkers the hands down best raid tanks. Today, it would be even worse. Consider that a well-geared berserker already has 10% DR from gear/runes, 5% from his mythical buff, 13% while Wall of Rage is running (30 sec, followed by 30 sec downtime), 3% while their Chaos is up (can almost be maintained), and 30% while Battle Frenzy is running (30 sec, 120 sec reuse). All of these stack. At 100% DR, you don't take any damage, at all. I'm sure you see why giving berserkers even more DR (they have too much as it is) would be a very bad idea.
Yeah... i'm still sore about them reducing the Guardian's Mythical down to 5% Physical DR rather than what it used to be. I strongly feel all Mythicals should have another enervation to either augment or add a new ability. I very much like the idea of a multi-expansion quest series. And your correct, Zerks already have x5 times the DR a Guardian has and x100 times the healing capacity. That's why I feel that Zerks are just a "bit" overpowered currently. I like them healing, but their DR's are too high. Damage-Prevention is what a Guardian should do. It would be noticeable when healing one or the other. Zerks assist the healer by healing themselves while Guardians assist by preventing the damage. The issue is SOE never really made that distinction in tanking styles at least in my opinion it is. And yeesh I had forgotten how long Adrenaline Lasted or how often it was up. I have to really agree with Karnoz on this one. His suggestion sounds much more in line with how to prevent broken mechanics (healing for absurd percentages) while also keeping the spirit of the ability working. To cross-examine his suggestion. Part of Adrenalins power was that is used to be limited by the fact you couldn't be Berserk all the time. If they made it harder to go Berserk it could be a more powerful skill. The way Karnoz has written it the effect would work like this within the game-code: - Sontalak hits YOU are hit for 650,000 Slashing Damage *The code would then check a few things. If the player was reduced to less than 0 hitpoints. If they were Berserk and if Adrenaline was running. If all of those except the 0 HP were true the code would apply Adrenalins healing. *Adrenaline cannot heal for more than 5% of the Berserkers life with this suggestoin. Say this Berserker has 1,350,000 in Raid. 5% of this is 67,500. *Normally Adrenaline would heal them for 325,000 but it's capped so they heal for 67,500. This means Berserkers would be very good at dealing with smaller hits. I would even suggest that it be capped at 10% of life for PvE and 5% for PvP. - Adrenaline heals YOU for 67,500 At least that is how a Reactive ability like Adrenaline would be handled within the game. Moving on to your Battle Frenzy suggestion. 1/4 chance to be healed for 4.0% of your Max HP. That's 40K every hit at 1,000,000 HP Max. Just for reference. You also said Zerks already have a LOT of Damage Reduction. I would actually like to suggest a new approach. Battle FrenzyRank (*/1)Sentinel's Fate2 pointRequires 10 points in Sentinel's Fate, Level 81, 70 points spent in the Berserker tree The Berserker goes into a Battle Frenzy at the sight of their own blood, healing when struck in combat for a short duration. Target Self Casting 0.5 seconds Recast 3 minutes Duration 30.0 seconds Effects: When target is damaged in combat this spell has a 15% chance to cast Frenzied on the caster. Increments up to 10 times. Applies Frenzied: Heals the Berserker .5% Max HP/Second and grants 2% DR. Lasts for 8 seconds. Each new stack refreshes this timer. When Battle Frenzy Terminates consumes all stacks of Frenzied. Grants 1 Weapon Damage Bonus per increment as long as the Berserker remains Berserk. Something akin to your approach Karnoz but also encourages more "getting hit more" than your's does. This would place Battle Frenzy as a strong tool for many-mob tanking, it stacks up to 5% HP per second and 20% DR if it stacks all the way up in it's 30 second duration. However, if your not getting hit very fast, the trigger percent coupled with the increment duration would aim this very much into the multi-tank realm and weaken it's single-target potential. I am aiming at the same goal. I would like to see more Single Target DR for Guardians myself since their focus is Protection of Self and Protection of Group.
Zerkers are just OP for 1 zone in the game atm really. How many Zerkers are MTing raids in comparison to how many Guards? How many guilds run with guards, but no zerkers? The only reason you are raging at Zerkers, is because you can track HPS. If you were able to measure HPS in Stoneskins, people would then want guards nerfed. Less of the "Nerf this class!!" attitude.
Also gotta remember that battle frenzy only has the DR if you go left side or dual conversion on prestige. My experience is that generally zerks go right side for normal stuff and left side only for the hard fights. One is dps, one is survival. Going dual conversion isn't really a middle ground, as you don't get the benefits of the final ends of either line. But I may play around with them now. I did like the 30%DR and 15% chance to clear it, but I like the AEtastic right side also.
I've MTd everything we've killed as a zerker. Usually left side, though I could go right side for more content now.
Zerks have been ok for a long while now. The recent sta change in hp has made self healing more apparent and is a Zerks fundamental core ability. If you take that away, they are nothing. If Zerks had other tools to avoid or mitigate incoming dmg they would not be healing nearly half as much. The inflated heals per second parses just shows how squishy we actually are.
