If it weren't for grey shards, I'd have no shards at all.

Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:

If people don't have time to get shards, then they're not going to have time to raid. If they don't have time to raid, then why do they need the shards, since by your own admission, shard armor is designed to get people geared up for raiding.

Loolee wrote:

Nope, we took the first one out, couldn't make it to the next. Bummer eh?

Nuhus wrote:

Sounds like you were with some terrible players. Next time try DF. Problem solved.

Tariuss@Antonia Bayle wrote:

If you need a Bard or Chanter to do Scion, Deep Forge, Caverns of Afflicted, or Evernight Abbey, your group has serious issues that go well beyond class makeup.
BTW, I absolutely REFUSE to believe that a group of 6 competent players, 5 of whom had mythicals, didn't have the DPS to handle Caverns.

Pedorro@Butcherblock wrote:

qfe

Let the exploiters cry until they can cry no more

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Agreed. Caverns can probably be three manned by competent mythicalled players.

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Blame it on whatever you want (sure theres a reason), competence, gear, players, group make up, classes. Most of the zones are a nightmare for PUG's and people just starting in TSO content. Out of the how many heroic zones TSO has? So what if a couple are toned down some. I honestly don't care that this is changing. But I think other things need to change.

Understandable arguments on both sides.
I see it that there are 3 main categories that play and would be interested in doing shard runs. Casual solo/duo. Decent guild groups. High raid groups.
Im not at all sure why the raiders would be doing shard runs, the exquisite drop rate is shockingly low and the shard gear (even T3) is nothing compared to the decent high end raid gear. But raiders can clear shard zones at 80 and with very little effort. I find it highly unlikely they would ever do them grey.
Decent guild groups, which im lucky enough to be in, actualy want to do them at 80 to get the loot and collections and 2 shards each time. There is no incentive to do them grey when you can do them fine at 80.
But the casual solo/duo players, which i understand is far the bulk of eq2 subscribers, tho the group with the quietest voice, are the only ones that would be hurt in any any significant way by removing the grey shards. As has been said many times before and in this thread they have the least ammount of disposable time and the most difficulty in finding groups to help, which is why they play solo/duo. I understand the appeal of grey shards to them, they have no other way of getting better gear than the basic quest items from moors. Which are rather underwhelming and nothing to be proud of, I found the basic dungeon drops from ROK were far far superior to anything a solo player could get from TSO.
As the maths guy above worked out if a casual player wasnt all that casual and managed to do some grey shard runs almost every day it would still take him several months to get the armor, several more for the jeweley. Raiders and groupers could easily get a full set in a couple weeks not greying them.
I am rather concerned that the devs said it wasnt an exploit and now after many months a sudden "change in policy"? that it now is an exploit. Only one group of players will be upset by this and its the bulk of your subscribers. Although, that said, as pointed out in many threads your main priority is to hardcore raiders, which i never really understood since they are only a tiny fraction of the subscribers. Im sure i read it somewhere that only 6% of players are raiders... cant remember now.
Anyway im not sure now why im rambling on since being part of the middle category Decent Guild Groups, grey shards and raiding are things i never need to deal with... hmm I'll go back to sleep. night everyone.

I dont understand why the only people for this change, are raiders.. Considering how easy mode it is for raiders to get shards, it doesnt make sense to me. (I raid 4 nights a week I know how easy it is to get shards at appropriate level and now it's even stupidly easier.) Explain to me, people of unlimited knowledge, how a group with only RoK legendary, can do any of the TSO instances without a bard or chanter? better yet post screenies and parses! I want proof. I dont want raiders/people in TSO gear. I want full ROK legendary, no bard, no chanter, one healer. Proof or it never happened. Guess AB just sucks hardcore cause i have yet to find a competent PuG that can clear zones in a reasonable amount of time /shrug.

Nuhus wrote:

I've been through Necrotic with 5 people who all had mythicals, & the place was rendered trivial. Necrotic is considerably more difficult than Caverns, so no, I'm sorry, the zone itself was not the problem.
I've done Caverns with nobody in the group having mythicals, BTW, & neither a Bard nor a Chanter. It's not that hard, & I just don't see how an experienced group of mythical-equipped players could have trouble in there.

If this is an exploit that means people have been exploiting gear for 5 months. I would expect SOE to deal with the exploiters according to exploit policy.
- Now that it's been stated it's an exploit I expect shards to be reverted by those who accrued them using this "exploit". (including T2/T3 gear).
- Anybody continue to use this "exploit" until the fix should be banned from EQ2 and accounts closed.

That or you can call it a design flaw you intend to change.

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

The SK was the only AOE heavy class. But the bard sounded drunk or high.

Tariuss@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I'm not sure what a "raider" is, but since I don't raid more than once or twice a month -- I don't have the time, or really even the interest -- I don't quite think I'm one.
Nevertheless, I support a change entirely, because I support the notion of people actually playing & earning their toys, & I'm a little dumb-founded to discover that a significant number of players would rather be ez-moded through the game. But then, the "omgzorz I need it ez-mode!!!!" players have been the bane of this game's existence since Day 1, & sadly, SOE has spent entirely too much time listening to them.

(( SOE, really, where are you taking this game now?
The gap in the effectiveness of gear from various playstyles used to be small. That was GOOD for the game, stopped well-geared players ludicrously trivializing normal content.
Then mythicals were added, which are groslly overpowered, and widen that gap hugely. Then TSO added an even larger gap between heroic-only obtainable gear and top-end raidgear. The gap is now so huge, that if you parse a normal nonraidgeared group and a topend raidgeared group, the latter is not 30% or 50% or 75% better, it is more like 400% better .. or more.
This one thing is ruining balancing content in the game, where more and more content is being added that requires insane numbers on the parse programs.
That gaps needs CLOSING, not making even larger.
Leave grey shards alone. It gives a way for those playing classes who are not popular in groups and who do not want to be in raidguilds, a way to at least reasonably progress, but still very slowly. It does no harm to let them be.
Instead, concentrate on working to close the gap between top-end gear and normal gear. Make that gap such that the former is 50% better, not many multiples as good.....))

Sheesh, such intense discussion and opinion! Has anyone looked at the calendar today?

Tariuss@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I don't raid. At all. But you do not need to be a raider to think it's ludicrous that you can get level 80 legendary rewards from what amounts to level 50 content.
Does anyone - regardless of playstyle or any other factor - seriously think it was intended? Please, I'd love to hear from the people who genuinely think they should be able to get shard armor from level 50 content. Versus those people who are just using weak excuses to justify exploiting the system.

NicolasKL wrote:

It's called the "casual raider". It's not that we don't have time to get shards. We just don't want to be collecting shards for the next six months to get in T2 armor that will soon be considered crap because everyone else is in T3 or working on something better. And who knows what the next expansion will bring?
The nice thing about the grey shards is that my char was finally able to start making up some distance gear-wise. I've been experiencing some of the RoK dungeons. I went on my first SoH raid the other day. It was nice. The last thing I want is to be grinding 200+ shards. I want to have fun exploring & grouping & casually raiding. But the "ticket" to that ride is a character with a certain level of gear.

Amise wrote:

And you've obviously never done a grey shard quest. It's not L50 content.

Nuhus wrote:

I have a California 215 card, & self-medicate multiple times daily.

Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Respectfully, I disagree. Raiders don't make up the majority of players and SoE is after as many sub's as they can get (just like every other gaming company out there).
I don't raid anymore, have not since I started Everquest II and left Everquest Live. That said, you get new raiders by getting them to group in a competent manner and giving them a taste of the "good stuff". You don't give unseasoned players fabled gear for doing nothing and expect them to perform well and be patient as they work to earn the future upgrades. DKP was a great incentive for insuring that they made the cut before rewarding them with top end gear.
If anything, the instances with shard armor were designed to allow for non-raiders to obtain better most but less than the best gear. The new instances that are solo would demonstrate that they realized that not everyone goes down the raid path, yet they would like some serious upgrades. Add to that the concept of having research assistants help "casuals" get Master Level Spells without raiding/instancing would indicate that their not focused on making everyone a raider.
Sorry, but the logic that free/easy to obtain fabled gear makes a great raider escapes me completely.