I see the devs posting in a lot of class forums can we please hav an answer about our seal line?

Hey it could be worse. You could be a Guardian, roflmo. Poor guards, if any class needs attention its that one, and they aint getting it( Between the guardian and warlock LU13 was a nightmare for me.

But back on topic. The answer given about the seal line is ambiguous at best. I still see no need for this buff. Ive seen tests done with the same sample size (on this forum) where in fact damage was LOWERED while using this line. Now I will hear but but it doesnt effect damage done, yes I concur! Dont you think less ressists and less fizzles will equate to more damage done? or even roughly the same? But the test I saw (same sample size 50 with/50without seal), the over all damage was less. So alas, how is this spell usefull, if I do same or less damage without it? **** that Ill stick with the stupid 12 int buff from pre 20 days. atleast it has some tangable effect.

/peace! and remember to stop by the guardian forum and support your meat shields)

Acatuly you are very wrong.

You want to know how much more hit you land with it.You look for the % of the hits.Not from the total number of tests.
This spell improve your hit/effectivness by 30% or 50% whatever way you wanna look at it.

A more extreme example:

Lets say you do a test and teh results are as follow:

2000 shots , 10hits as an average of doing this 2k test many times.
Now you do it with the spell on ,now you get 20hits ,so is the spell good or not? By your calculation it only improve by 1%.But by the actual way you should look at it the spell improved your % to hit by 100%.

Fixed

Will
You are correct in saying that is a 45% increase to the successes only.
However look at the possibility of landing a spell overall. You go from a 22% chance of landing a spell (11/50), to a 32% chance of landing a spell (16/50). Thus your overall increase in the probability of successfully landing a spell is 10% (32-22=10).
Again, you have to look at the overall picture. After all I could add 45% to 1 and I would get 1.45 which isn't a significant change if your talking about the percentage chance to hit something.

**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**
Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 11-07-2005 04:08 PM

Its a ~10% increase in hits but a ~45% increase in hits versus without it. Both the same thing but glass is half empty/glass is half-full views.
And he said clearly the effects of this would be muted more and more by mitigations of orange and red cons so the lowest level red test actually shows you the "worst-case scenario" he could envision (assuming the highest mobs most people would ever attack at any sort of consistancy are first-level red cons). According to his earlier statements an orange con would give better numbers than he showed and a yellow con even better than that.
Im sure he used the low-level spell for cast time and not killing the mobs so fast. Whether 50 tests is enough is up for debate but at worst it shows you the numbers he expects to see. If someone can do significantly more tests and show his numbers are off, maybe he will look again.
Message Edited by Ferous on 11-07-2005 05:41 PM

Regarding the previous post by Ferous.

Read lockeye's first post on this thread, he states that + to skills work best against higher con situations.

So the situation he tested was actually best case scenario for the spell rather than worst.

If you lower the con the spell has less and less effect.


Casts without buff = not many hits

Casts with buff = not many hits

Not many hits + Not not many hits = stupid useless spell.




Message Edited by Thibor24 on 11-07-2005 02:50 PM

Exactly my point, if it yields no tangable effect over the period of a fight long or short, what good is it?? Period! Until someone posts logs with a solid test to disprove the lack of effectiveness from this spell, then I will continue to believe it doesnt do crap.

for reference look for a post "Straight answers on seal line". Untill this is countered with solid data, then I stand by my conviction.

Put me in MT group i can buff their str by 12! ya ya bad jk, I actually end up in MT group (Amends) for the highest raid DPS to ensure agro durring MT's stifling/stunned moments.

/agree with Ferous

Everything you said was the truth. I take the glass is half empty view for many reasons. But the main one is because telling people they get a 45% bonus is extremely misleading. Just like I said, adding 45% to 1 is not significant.

And I stand by my earlier comments. The buff is situational and catered to the elite.

There was no need for a personal attack. In case you haven't read the forum rules it is against the terms of use.
And I HAD another class before the revamp. Take your pompous trolling elsewhere.
Message Edited by Raven DarkStorm on 11-07-2005 02:50 PM

Although I agree there is no reason for personal attacks. But go check out the guardian forums. They would have to ban 90% of them, as they are at their wits end in frustration. They have nothing left but to lash out at gaige and others trying to tell 'them' how the guardian class should/shoudnt be balanced. That board is a mess! Its nice comming here and only seeing an occasional attack, honestly it is)

I agree there is no need to get personal on this issue.
That said im quite enjoying this discussion and am hoping someone will say something to convince me this is a useful spell.

Although I will respec to Null dist I will play devils advocate's for you

Hmm so lets see......

Null dist will improve your DPS by what? 2-4% tops? This spell improves at 10% if you look at the minimum figure ,what other spell can soley do that?

([expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cant play devils advocats when the point is so weak,wish lockeye test was on oranges and not reds which are basicly non exsictent)

Thanks for the information Lockeye, it's good to know the spell effect is working as intended.
From my perspective, if the results of this small sample are indicative of the actual improvement from this spell then I am satisfied. I find this spell preferable to an intelligence buff since intelligence can be boosted in many other ways and in high end encounters hitting the mob more often is more important than an extra 1 or 2% damage per hit.

BTW dont forget this spell effects ALL casters not just us.Meaning this increase EVERY caster in your group chance to hit and thus DPS too.

INT is EASILY capped.I have hit 525int in raids while having some ghetto equip on me.If I cared about INt (which I dont) I guess I could hit 600+ in raids.

Dont forget...cap is 400 now...basicly achiveable with equip only.So stop thinking we need INT buffs so much because we dont.

If I had a choice between hiting 500+ int or sta/wis I wouldnt give it a second thought.

Stop thinking of how ******* it is to have tons of INT and look at the more useful side of the stats.

So i think the conclusion is
When soloing this spell will be of minimal value and you may get more out of the +int +str buff.
When raiding this spell should become useful especially if you are grouped with other casters.
To the person who said they can get 400 int just with eq, what the hell are you wearing?
Ive got myself decked out pretty well and am still a tad under 300.

I don`t know if you read other forums, but the amount of fizzles priests get is very high. It is even so high that sometimes the tank dies because of it. Tbh I have alway had that seal buff on and I never had a healer complain about a huge amount of fizzles in my group. While maybe the boost you get for damage isnt noticeable or useless since it is only noticeable on orange or better mobs, you might consider that it realy helps other casters to have less fizzles and plain resists. If it realy helps other casters like that, I wouldnt say it is an useless spell, I would even say it is a better spell then an INT buff,

It's amazing how many of you are down on a utility buff... Yes, it's situational. Yes, it will help someone besides you. But think about it, if your "role" is to DPS (i.e. kill stuff dead quickly) anything that will reduce the percentage to be resisted by a mob is a good thing and arguably better than an int bonus which will only show up *if* the spell lands. In addition to that, aren't your roots an important part of how you solo? Well, they have a casting skill modifier on them. Generally a resisted root is synonymous with debt to the warlocks in my guild. More roots sticking = good, death/debt = bad.
For grouping this buff helps other casters that may not be as high of a level as you contribute to dps. Once again, killing things quicker is a good thing.
Unfortunately, I'm not versed on exactly how many concentration buffs a warlock will have in any 15 level range, so I can't comment on whether you guys have to make a hard decision when soloing as to sacrifice this buff for something else. But as a group buffer, I can tell you that using con. slots for what's best for the group supercedes personal dps. It doesn't show up on a parser, but the net effect is huge.
Oh, and a well equipped and balanced group of 6 can take out yellow and orange heroics quite easily.

the point is....we can do that well without the buff.
this buff isn't effective enough, or necessary enough to come into play.

I agreed that i now believe it has its uses in group and raid situations.
However solo I'm still convinced it isnt worthy.
Typically when solo we are not fighting orange or red or even high yellow because the resist rates even with this buff are stupidly high.
So the buff as stated by the developer has decreased effectiveness the lower the con of the mob, when fighting solo there is minimal to no use from this spell.
Couple that with the reports that it actually decreases dps its just not worth having up in a solo situation. IMHO