Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Earar, Dec 26, 2019.
question in title
so far at least .. compared to other tanks
It is too early to say really. The Bruiser epic 2.0 is currently bugged and awaiting a fix. Void Strike is supposed to increase the damage of lightning fists but with Lightning Fists IX the numbers go down instead of up which is an obvious bug. If this gets fixed Bruisers will be in pretty good shape in terms of DPS.
Defensively my avoidance is much higher than it was in CD so that is a big step in the right direction. Surviving Bulwark is still going to be an issue going forward. Stone Deaf really needed to get an upgrade but it is basically the same as it was. It should have 4 or 5 triggers instead of just 3. Then Bruisers would actually be decent tanks.
I am a return player, I've been gone about three years. I've been working through the last two xpacs to level and gear up my bruiser. My questions are as follows:
1) Can bruisers output sustainable dps ?
2) To maximize dps, in respecing through the AA trees, is there a line I can follow to maximize dps?
3) What combat abilities should my set up follow? Is there a simple way reference which abilities are combat, which are self buffs, group buffs and debuffs?
Surak - Maj'Dul
1. Bruiser can output sustainable DPS but a Monk will pretty much beat you ever time. There were a couple monks I raided with yesterday and they both crushed me even though I had 10,000 more potency.
2. Short answer is, NO. If you want to maximize dps your best bet is just betray to Monk.
3. Abilities with a yellow or black background are buffs. Blue is AoE ability, red is single target. Put them on separate hotbars as a quick reference.
The patch this morning broke it even worse than it was before.
The description reads: "Increases the damage of Lightning Fists and removes the trigger limit."
The key word here is AND...
It says "...and removes the trigger limit."
The per hit damage went up but now it has a trigger limit when it didn't before.
The way it is now is a NERF. This fix lowered my effective damage. I used to get between 70 to 100 triggers of void strike per minute. Post fix I am getting less than 20 triggers / minute. Now I can expect this ability to do about half the damage it used to.
BEFORE and AFTER the fix showing the difference the trigger limit makes.
this company continues to amaze me in the worst ways. I am so tired of there being a give-and-take any time something needs fixed. just FIX the problem.. then leave it alone! We shouldn't have to lose something to get something working again, it should just work as it did before. /rant off
I feel like Oliver Twist here asking "Please sir can I have some more" and then getting slapped for asking that an obvious bug be fixed. Compare Void strike to Dragon fire on this zonewide parse. Dragon Fire gets 5788 triggers while void strike only hit 478 times.
How is this even remotely fair? Note this monk had 17k less potency than me. Dragon fire is still doing twice the damage of my best ability. I have 165k potency and my dps is a joke. I get out parsed by healers in similar gear. My gear is amazing but Bruiser as a class is some serious weak sauce.
How is auto-attack so high? Or is crush something else? Do you both have an Inq?
Reforge everything into DPS mod to get hard hitting auto-attacks.
Hmm. Let's take this one step at a time. First, your "before" parse was on a tank and spank raid mob with raid-level buffing, and at a time where it could or could not have had a buff package due to bugs. Second, your "after" parse was on a heroic mob containing an interactive script with lots of combat mit. I sense a little issue here in comparing data.
Echelon of Order [Heroic]. That's a decent sized zone with DENSE POPULATIONS OF TRASH, some keywords there. If I were a betting fellow I'd say your group wasn't carefully pulling one mob/encounter at a time, considering your overall combat time. HMM I WONDER WHAT ABILITY WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE ON CONSTANT AOE FIGHTS? Dawg you guessed it, it's Dragonfire. 8 target maximum, 3 components of the ability tick multiple times during its duration, and it doublecasts, and it can be reset!
I'm not here to say that bruisers are fine, but maybe you're getting laughed at and slapped because this is considered sh*tposting in terms of attempting to be a contributive member of working towards class balance.
I have had over 2000 DPS mod on my Necro since KA but autoattack was never more than 1%. Is it just a lot of wdb on gear? Weapon modifier like an Inq or Geo? What has changed from CD to BoL?
I honestly have a hard time believing that he's serious, honestly. While it's impossible to do a before and after test now, those 2 parses not only have so few similarities that they can't be compared, they also, if scaled to a similar playing field, show an increase in DPS.
The first comparison was just to test the proc RATE, not the damage numbers. It was taken 15 minutes after the servers came up on (1/3/20) so I could get the bug report in ASP. This 2nd parse below is the parse you need to look at. Same group, same zone, same buffs, same mobs being pulled. Yes the fights were AoE but that is the point. Void strike used to hit multiple mobs before the nerf. Now it only hits one at a time. As you said dragon fire can hit 8 mobs for multiple ticks, it can double cast, and be reset. Void strike hits one mob and can't double cast. I had 17k more potency than this Monk and yet dragon fire still beat my void strike by nearly tipple the damage. It is a joke.
Except that is exactly what you are saying. The same thing applies to Snikkety. People love to come in here and kick a class when they are down. Some people don't want Bruisers to compete with monks. They want Monks to do x3 times the damage and think that is fair. LOL.
Last expansion I spent several months crafting a document explaining everything wrong with Bruisers and how to fix them. I got about half of what I asked for (Issues 1, 2, 4,and 6 solved). So what I am doing is having an effect on class balance. It is people like you who contribute nothing to the conversation. What positive change have you brought to the game?
Where did I say that? I said your methodology was bad, that's about it. I'd love more than anything for all classes to be balanced, but historically all that you've done is spam your document around in conversations unrelated to it, tag devs at random times and yell about how bruisers are underpowered. Like, dude, all mages suck right now. Bruiser isn't even bottom 5 of the game, balance wise.
In fact, they aren't even the worst fighter. You don't need to turn everything into a pity party for bruisers because, honestly, they are only in a bad spot when compared with monks. So maybe the issue is monks and not bruisers?
When you attack my methodology and say I am "not serious" that implies the class is fine. Every class needs an advocate to fight for their most pressing issues. If mages are broke perhaps they need to follow my lead by create a document detailing the problems with reasonable solutions too those problems. Otherwise it just a bunch of whining. Take this advice from a long neglected class that has been in that broken position. Complaining without bringing solutions to the table does not work. Before I came along and started fighting for changes this class was dead. I have a clear vision for what I want the Bruiser to be and I have communicated that vision to the devs in a constructive way. What do mages want I can't answer that question. That is on them to do the leg work and construct their own vision.
And I would agree with that statement. In Chaos Descending Bruiser was the undisputed bottom of the barrel class. As mentioned before 4 or the 6 issues got fixed. That is a lot of progress. It is not a coincidence that the things in my document where the things that got changed. But I am not going to rest on my laurels and let issues pile up. I am going to keep fighting until all the issues are fixed. This isn't just a Monk vs Bruiser dispute. Berserkers with the same potency as me (167k) are absolute monsters. Until my class reaches parity with Monks and Berserkers I am going to keep on advocating. Only when there is equal parity will I say the class is "fine."
Am i missing something here ?
You out damaged the Monk, you hit harder on avg, your median hit is higher, but 1 monk AE skill that is boosted with AA is ticking for 1/4 of his hits and at 1/6 the damage of your void strike. Isn't overall damage the more important stat in clearing instances / raids than how many ticks one still does. Even with dragonfire ticking 5,300 times more than void strike, the monk only hit 3,000 more times for less damage.
Well, the thing is that you missed the point here. His stuff is hitting harder because Obano here has vastly better gear than the monk he is using as a comparison. Even at such with extreme gear disparity, the monk Dragonfire is still very significantly outparsing his Void Strike equivalent ability.
That aside, even with less damage, that monk still has better tools to hold aggro more consistently in a group due to the Void Strike nerf significantly hurting a brusiers ability to pick up and hold adds, which at least right now outside of mem wipes on the named are the thing a brawler has to work at to keep aggro on.
What I am not saying here is that everything needs to be the same, but to even pretend the two brawlers are balanced right now, there has to be some degree of parity, of which right now there isn't, and these corresponding skills are the single biggest offenders.
Just for some quick comparison math, in the same zone in the same group, Dragonfire hit 12x more than Void Strike, and from a dps standpoint if normalized around both of their auto attack, which I know isn't a good comparison, Dragonfire did 4.5x the damage of Void Strike.
See aggro wasn't mentioned so that would be an issue.
But i guess the damage part just goes over my head. Dragonfire is an AE skill and is hitting 8x the mobs with 3 additional green text adding to the tick count (if it counts the green text as individual ticks) and it only did 2.5x the damage. On a single boss fight the bruiser will out dps that monk by 4 or 5 times the damage when dragonfire isn't a factor.
I agree removing the AE effect and hopefully increasing the dps of void strike sucks for the bruiser, but this issue isn't because dragonfire was OP compared to a bruiser. It's because DB changed a bruiser skill without taking into consideration the other effects (aggro)
Boneshatter combination would be better to gain aggro but it's only single target too (which is what voide strike sounds like its more in line with now)
added : Wonder if the monk is using perfect form (don't have that yet myself) but combined with any CA would drastically boost the monk DPS.
What are you using to parse with. I've never bothered with that but maybe it will give me better insight into my monks dps allocations.
Comparing an ae to a single strike dmg proc component. Makes sense
bmw vs horse and carriage. Debate
See, this is a large part of why this whole thing is being brought up in the first place, before the change to Void Strike, it effected all targets on every hit, even in you guessed it, AOE. The skill lighting fists used to remove the trigger limit before it was "fixed", this allowed it to AOE. The thing was, while it was doing that correctly, it was broken and wasn't increasing the damage on void strike like it was supposed to per the flavor text. So the "fix" was to correctly increase the damage, but at the same time put the trigger limit back in, thus removing the AOE.
From what I understand, but can't confirm, is the change was overall DPS neutral, basically increased single target damage at the expense of AOE damage, and which version you use, the old one which still allows Void Strike to aoe, or the new one which is single target only depends on the encounter.
This is really just another example of a class that saw an unintended nerf from a change to a class ability that was either a bug or poorly thought out. I don't see anyone who is at least serious, saying bruisers were a class that needed this type of nerf.
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