GU #57: No new PvP/BG accessories? Timetravelling said...

Hello,
After reading your feedback it is a common theme that Toughness needs to be evaluated. We will go over the numbers and adjust them as needed to make sure we reach the survivability that is intended. We will make sure to include AA, Class abilities and the procs currently available in the equation.
We are aware of the various changes that need to be made to improve overall fun in our PvP servers and we appreciate your feedback on each topic. At this time, I cannot say when these changes will go live. What I can say is that our team is committed to making positive changes for our PvP servers.
Thank you!
Olihin

Thank you.

Please reach out to the community/guilds and ask for testing or private feedback on these before you just stamp them on a GU.

Lourd@Nagafen wrote:

Your approach is completely mistaken and unrealistic.
They will never remove procs and establish the game in a way where all these features are innate character aspects.
The only way to replace procs is if certain classes had: another type of adornment to either infuse gear on a class-specific level, or another advancement tree altogether.

Regardless, priests can live even without the 2 stoneskin proc items I mentioned, and even against tens of people with that many procs.
Point was, extreme survivability tends to be the problem, far more than any DPS done even with procs.

If toughness is removed or added to PvE gear, then PvE crit mit would need to be added to PvP gear, and blue adorns would have to include class-specific options as well.
Though the likely route may just be to diminish the potency of toughness, I wouldn't mind returning to universal critical mitigation and destroying toughness.

(P.S. Thanks Olihin!) ;D

Pudaanza@Nagafen wrote:

You elitist ho bag!
There are certainly ways to organize public tests with protocols outlined for properly reporting a given system.

And Peak, bro, you totally know they're not going to just go test some random battlegrounds scenario with everything disabled, cause that'd make everyone rage about their time commitment being negated.

IMO, before changes are even made, there just needs to be some thorough testing.
I don't think it's that bad right now, and I don't think everyone necessarily has as thorough a perspective on these matters as they could.

Fighting even or stacked odds while undermanned, or while undergeared, it can drastically change players' perception of what the issues could be.
Berserkers, especially, can misrepresent an engagement because their heals are SO FREAKING CRAZY, on top of their ability to keep nearly everyone taunt locked unless you have a Shadowknight for Death March or Templar for Sanctuary.
And then if you have another tank in there, you just might not be able to compete if your DPS is doing less than the Crusader or Berserkers and not trying to focus direct damage on their most contributory priest.

I'm kinda OCD, but if i was behind these changes, I'd be testing every combo of priests, every combo of fighters, every combo of DPS with completely stacked PvP gear and maybe 2 red slot pieces, and then also throw out a wild card and give both priests items like the Ring of Blood and Rage and the Soulshattering band while not endowing the other group with such.
But, such a scheme takes time, and who knows if that's as disposable as we might wish for the PvP arena of development...

Pudaanza@Nagafen wrote:

This.
A battleground scenario that was used as a 'test' server in a sense would be amazing. Not even close to enough people would log on to an actual test server to test out BG/PVP changes ... but a scenario they could queue up for? Maybe. Make sure it doesn't give any tokens or XP though, imo.

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

You don't know if enough people would log on or not.
If they schedule it a week or two in advance on the forums and broadcast about it in-game, requiring RSVP (early correspondence to be included in a certain testing pairing), they'd likely get a good number.
The difference for their idea of battlegrounds testing was that there was no RSVP required, dates and times kept changing, and there was no distinct goal on terms of data collection objectives to accomplish.
They could also send out inquiring tells to those who have been actively PvPing the past couple of weeks or month, as well.

Bosconi wrote:

Or they could simply introduce a 'special rules' BG scenario purely for testing new mechanics before they go live gamewide.

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

Testing requires variable equipment builds and group combinations competing against each other, utilizing coordinated and focused teams.
If you have someone whose toon is normally one with 150 AAs all of a sudden being given 250 AAs and a lot of uber gear, who's to say that player will have their wits about them enough to organize their new AA abilities and focus on healing the right players.

RSVP prep for test builds would allow players to be slotted according to defined settings.
Emphasis for a test team would be notations like:
· DPSers creating target macros for the priests (or DPSers as well for those playing fighters)
· priests remembering to cure themselves when target locked
· clerics remembering to move and stop if their stifle immunity isn't working
· scouts using mental breach on priests
· chain stunning/knocking back (considering abilities like teh templar hammer!!)
· manastones/power regen over time potions being used since the beginning of the fight (in cases where builds disclude items like the Ring of Blood & Rage/Signet of Devouring/Soulshattering band)
· other miscellaneous PvP details I forget

Bosconi wrote:

In the real world, you don't always have scouts using mental breach, or clerics that realize you have to stay still for Steadfast to work, or any other nonsense. And I'm not even sure where a player going from 150->250AA came from.
All I said is introduce a new scenario, no different than any others, except that it has different mechanic rules. Players can queue up solo and group for it. No doubt any PVP change is going to effect BGs just as much, and vice versa, so there is no reason why it couldn't be a BG scenario. It would open up testing to anyone on any server without having to log in to the Test server.
Have it give no rewards. Have it give no XP or AA. Make it simple, not CTF or anything, but just a simple brawl between two groups to test out mechanics.

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

To truly test things effectively and gauge what problems there might possibly be, you can't have weak links that will diminish the quality of the experiment.
If mechanics are changed in a battlegrounds scenario built for testing, you don't want a character with 150 AAs fighting those with 250 AAs, because they're irrelevant to the picture of balance.
Were your approach to be used, AAs would need to be temporarily upped, and then you just have the burden of completely careless players who just enjoy the "go go go" mentality, who would probably ignore: any notations for optimal group performance or time to organize hotbars with new AA abilities/targeting macros/etc.

Why does the end-customer even have to do the testing for sony anyway ? What a lousy concept for a multi million $ enterprise, for crying out loud...
Next time i buy a car, i guess i have to be prepared to get a fail car, and feedback to the producer, what exactly isn't working.
You want me to test your crap ? then instead of taking my 15 bucks a month, you should pay me.

I don't know why you guys keep whining PVP this PVP that GU57 is made for PVP not PVE so if anybody should be whining it should be PVE

Bleuty@Blackburrow wrote:

Most of GU57 is a shameless RMT push into the asian market which doesnt help pvp or pve.
And the crit heals for fighters? If they wanted to disable them for pvp only they are more then capable of doing so. The rulesets already use different damage calculations.
Whine blubie whine. Everything is magically "our" fault despite the fact that all damage and heals are calculated differently in pvp than in pve! The amount of fail in blubie logic never stops amazing me.

Why do you guys think toughness is broken? It's only broken for a few classes, namely sorc.
If someone is debuffed properly they drop like a rock , regardless of their toughness. If your group makeup is correct and you time your debuffs/attacks properly, tanks go down fast. The only classes that don't die super fast are sorc and brawlers (broken avoidance).
Most of you probably experienced PVP against other toons that have low aa, low gear, etc.
Go against a full group of 250 aa, experienced pvp players, with a stacked group and it doesn't matter who you are or what toughness you have you will die in under 5 seconds.
1v1 though, is a completely different story. I'm not sure this can be fixed easily without messing up the group mechanic.
My suggestion was to make toughness add pvp crit mit only and no damage reduction, but add LOTS of crit mit, over 100%. This will make players stack potency in pvp instead of crit bonus, just like it was in TSO, and without the damage reduction, players will still take damage 1v1 although nothing will crit, which is perfectly fine.

Bosconi wrote:

The game isn't only built around the hardcore-been-playing-since-2006 PVPer.

Brynhild wrote:

Lol, every point in this post is completely wrong, unless you were a sorc in TSO, then base damage was better.

I'm fairly certain you arent talking about the same game with that post though

This pvp sucks with the current mechanics . Log in for raids, dont want to run instances b/c they suck and there is what 7 or 8 maybe new heroic instances in this xpac?. Your correct i dont have the current pvp gear b/c i cant get into the bg's at all. I would take tso pvp anyday. I mean sersiouly who complained about using raid gear in pvp. The d*** cry baby's who this fu**in game is catering too now. How hard is it to remove toughness and pvp crit mit????? Delete it in one LU, just like it was added. You push this stupid fu**in mechanics with no testing. Just to verify you said to test, i would log over run around 30mins and find no one to fight, so i would log out.
Crit mit is crit mit, when you gave these cry baby scrub pvpers this blue adorn pvp crit mit crap they think they are gods now. Stop catering and fix it. You were told the problems by vet pvpers who pretty much made pvp fun now just do what your told before more people just stop loggin in at all.
Sorry for rambling in this post all, 2:30 am and just pissed after reading this crap posted by Ohilin.

Casters need Strength on gear !!!

Another thing that needs to be looked into is pvp item proc Kinetic Barrier. This proc stacks with other items with the same proc, I've seen up to 4 of these procs on some people. Having 4 of these 2.5% reduced physical damage done to caster plus having a full set up toughness makes any time of melee almost worthless, not to mention they proc 10% of the time when ever damaged. This needs to be looked at or something needs to change with it.

Olihin should pick out a couple well known veteran PVPers to get legit ideas from. I'm sure there are a number of veteran players that might have even -posted- in this thread that would be happy to offer up suggestions for revitalizing PVP.
I understand that anyone can post their thoughts here already, but with all the random no named scrubs posting about how level locking is destroying PVP or about how "insert-class-here" just owned them and should be nerfed.. the meaningful posts tend to be lost in the crowd of crying.
Hell, I'd be happy to offer up my suggestions. I've played practically every class in PVP and I'm fairly well known. Or even just forget me, I'm sure Pudaan would offer his thoughts, or Heelo, or even Brokensword if you can manage to find him. Grab some of those people and get their thoughts. I'm pretty certain there won't be any "durrhurr give us back Barren Sky PVP" thoughts, even though that would be amazing, but actual good, logical, and definitely implementable ideas and solutions.
It's really frustrating to see good posts by well known players among idiotic posts by no name players, and then misinterpreted posts and bad changes in every update. For the most part, PVP in this game has gone absolutely downhill since around EOF and ROK. There have always been a number of good and thought out solutions to most problems presented but very few (if any) of them have ever been implemented. It's disappointing to see the feedback players are posting is still seemingly ignored.
Seriously, pick a few people and get your ideas from them. Communicate more with the playesr here. You say you have some changes in mind *big changes* coming soon, but you can't say anything? Even if it's not a guarantee at least toss out the ideas that are on the table so you can get more feedback. Tell us what you're considering from the feedback you received. Yeah, it will open you up to more flaming and attacks but you know what, you'll get all of that no matter what you do. Enough bullsh^t of being surprised GU after GU as PVP deteriorates more and more.
TL;DR-> Take the feedback from the known players seriously, because quite frankly some random scrub posting their huge list of terrible ideas while rocking 1K PVP kills doesn't have sh^t on a number of other people who have posted with 30K, 40K, or even 50-60K PVP kills, and I certainly wouldn't trust them for ideas because with 1K PVP kills there is no way they are that good, and their ideas will reflect that.

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

QFE