GU #57: No new PvP/BG accessories? Timetravelling said...

ARCHIVED-Bosconi · Aug 12, 2010

Truck@Venekor wrote:

“Bosconi wrote:

“I wouldn't mind GU#58 releasing very powerful pieces that cost 700-1,000 tokens, or even some demanding 2,500 or 5,000 or 10,000 tokens.

There would only have to be the promise that these items would not be reduced in price, though. ;]

That, and there aren't always warfields running with victor bonuses that'd be meaningful to everyone (see the EQ2 PvP panacea link in my thread).
Asiiiide from such a thing, the other issue is also fame decay, which removes the rivalry that fame loss on death from those ranked above, below, or on par with you brought.”

The problem had nothing to do with the cost of PVP items. The problem is a direct result of simplifying PVP and making PVE gear useless in PVP.
People are leaving because the game is boring.(On the PVP servers,atleast.) Raiding and running zones was a massive part of PVP in KoS/EoF and even TSO. People had the drive to do zones and raid to get better gear to be better in PVP.
Making BG's and forcing everyone to wear the BG gear to compete in PVP is killing the PVP server. There's no reason to run PVE zones when the gear isn't worth the trouble because it doesn't have toughness or PVP specific stats. As I've already said...when no one wants to run zones,they are missing out on 75% or more of the game. This leaves them with nothing but PVP with absolutely no real goals. PVP has become nothing but a mindless grind to get the gear,then go afk until the next set comes out.

The only way they are going to save the server is to either go back to TSO crit mit,or back to the days of KOS/EoF where people actively ran zones when they weren't PVPing for the purpose of being better in PVP by aquiring better gear.”

There were many issues that contributed to the loss of open world PvP occurring at the frequency it used to.
Open world PvP is still relatively healthy, but not comparable to what it was.

Like you noted, PvP was active during the TSO era, which came with PvP gear equalizing the handi-cap that players had against PvE raiders in KoS/EoF.
Truth is, many people compete with 70% PvE gear.

You aren't presenting any realistic solutions, and you completely ignored all of my accurate depictions of changes that detracted from open world PvP.
You should also revise the quote you made of me to include the changes I made to my post. n_n

ARCHIVED-dbzone25 · Aug 12, 2010

Bosconi wrote:

“Truck@Venekor wrote:

“Bosconi wrote:

“I wouldn't mind GU#58 releasing very powerful pieces that cost 700-1,000 tokens, or even some demanding 2,500 or 5,000 or 10,000 tokens.

There would only have to be the promise that these items would not be reduced in price, though. ;]

That, and there aren't always warfields running with victor bonuses that'd be meaningful to everyone (see the EQ2 PvP panacea link in my thread).
Asiiiide from such a thing, the other issue is also fame decay, which removes the rivalry that fame loss on death from those ranked above, below, or on par with you brought.”

The problem had nothing to do with the cost of PVP items. The problem is a direct result of simplifying PVP and making PVE gear useless in PVP.
People are leaving because the game is boring.(On the PVP servers,atleast.) Raiding and running zones was a massive part of PVP in KoS/EoF and even TSO. People had the drive to do zones and raid to get better gear to be better in PVP.
Making BG's and forcing everyone to wear the BG gear to compete in PVP is killing the PVP server. There's no reason to run PVE zones when the gear isn't worth the trouble because it doesn't have toughness or PVP specific stats. As I've already said...when no one wants to run zones,they are missing out on 75% or more of the game. This leaves them with nothing but PVP with absolutely no real goals. PVP has become nothing but a mindless grind to get the gear,then go afk until the next set comes out.

The only way they are going to save the server is to either go back to TSO crit mit,or back to the days of KOS/EoF where people actively ran zones when they weren't PVPing for the purpose of being better in PVP by aquiring better gear.”

There were many issues that contributed to the loss of open world PvP occurring at the frequency it used to.
Open world PvP is still relatively healthy, but not comparable to what it was.

Like you noted, PvP was active during the TSO era, which came with PvP gear equalizing the handi-cap that players had against PvE raiders in KoS/EoF.
Truth is, many people compete with 70% PvE gear.

You aren't presenting any realistic solutions, and you completely ignored all of my accurate depictions of changes that detracted from open world PvP.
It could've also been a bad move to put writ givers in immunity areas only.
Maybe, a positive change would be moving PvP writ givers to be only in contested PvP spots.
While there may be a lot of centralized ganking, it's on the outskirts of this that many healthy PvP encounters may be found.”

The only realistic solution is to make PVE gear a viable option in PVP,rather than being forced to wear this absolutely terrible crap they have now. If you want the population to return to what it used to be,you need to give people something to do besides just PVPing for some copy and pasted crap that takes an hour to get.
PVE and PVP go hand in hand in this game. PVP cannot survive without PVE,as you can clearly tell by the massive delcine in population and open world PVP. No one is looking for groups for zones because the gear is not worth it,which means alot of people are just sitting AFK during a time when they would normally be running a zone trying to get that awesome piece of gear that's going to make them better.
Make PVE gear a viable option to wear in PVP,or the server is going to continue to decay into nothingness.
Addressing the things you added: Putting the writ givers back into contested area's wont help. It will just add another place for people to stand around AOEing. The writ givers are fine where they are now and have nothing to do with the lack of open world PVP.

ARCHIVED-Bosconi · Aug 12, 2010

Truck@Venekor wrote:

“The only realistic solution is to make PVE gear a viable option in PVP,rather than being forced to wear this absolutely terrible crap they have now. If you want the population to return to what it used to be,you need to give people something to do besides just PVPing for some copy and pasted crap that takes an hour to get.
PVE and PVP go hand in hand in this game. PVP cannot survive without PVE,as you can clearly tell by the massive delcine in population and open world PVP. No one is looking for groups for zones because the gear is not worth it,which means alot of people are just sitting AFK during a time when they would normally be running a zone trying to get that awesome piece of gear that's going to make them better.
Make PVE gear a viable option to wear in PVP,or the server is going to continue to decay into nothingness.”

You're exaggerating, because PvE gear is still a very viable option in PvP.
Toughness destroying universal critical mitigation isn't hampering PvP at all when compared to the problems and complications I related.

Quoting the entirety of what I posted might also help to note the illustrated emphasis.
For instance, you claim there will only be AOE gank fests if PvP writ givers were move to open world only, but forget that on the fringe of such encounters, one would often find decent solo/duo/trio/group combat.

Less time taken to outfit yourself, and no fame loss to worry about are strong forces in the realm of PvP longevity being reduced, and you ignore them to champion returning to universal critical mitigation as you espouse the fallacy that PvE gear still, somehow, isn't viable in PvP, despite live scenarios disproving such lies 24/7.

ARCHIVED-dbzone25 · Aug 12, 2010

Bosconi wrote:

“Truck@Venekor wrote:

“The only realistic solution is to make PVE gear a viable option in PVP,rather than being forced to wear this absolutely terrible crap they have now. If you want the population to return to what it used to be,you need to give people something to do besides just PVPing for some copy and pasted crap that takes an hour to get.
PVE and PVP go hand in hand in this game. PVP cannot survive without PVE,as you can clearly tell by the massive delcine in population and open world PVP. No one is looking for groups for zones because the gear is not worth it,which means alot of people are just sitting AFK during a time when they would normally be running a zone trying to get that awesome piece of gear that's going to make them better.
Make PVE gear a viable option to wear in PVP,or the server is going to continue to decay into nothingness.”

You're exaggerating, because PvE gear is still a very viable option in PvP.”

No,it's not. Not like it was in KOS and TSO. Sure,you can flip out one or two pieces,but in the end..it isn't going to make a lick of difference. What you might have gained by adding those pieces will only be subtracted from your survivability.
If the lack of population and open world PVP isn't a direct result of seperating PVE and PVP,then what is the cause? Please tell me so we can find some way to adress it.
The way I see it: no one wants to do instances or raid anymore because it wont help them in PVP. People get bored quickly of doing nothing but PVPing for cheap gear that everyone else has. People quit playing because they no longer have any motivation.
If you see some flaw in my argument,please tell me.

ARCHIVED-UCMatthew · Aug 12, 2010

Truck@Venekor wrote:

“Bosconi wrote:

“I wouldn't mind GU#58 releasing very powerful pieces that cost 700-1,000 tokens, or even some demanding 2,500 or 5,000 or 10,000 tokens.
There would only have to be the promise that these items would not be reduced in price, though. ;]

That, and there aren't always warfields running with victor bonuses that'd be meaningful to everyone (see the EQ2 PvP panacea link in my thread).
Asiiiide from such a thing, the other issue is also fame decay, which removes the rivalry that fame loss on death from those ranked above, below, or on par with you brought.”

The problem had nothing to do with the cost of PVP items. The problem is a direct result of simplifying PVP and making PVE gear useless in PVP.
People are leaving because the game is boring.(On the PVP servers,atleast.) Raiding and running zones was a massive part of PVP in KoS/EoF and even TSO. People had the drive to do zones and raid to get better gear to be better in PVP.
Making BG's and forcing everyone to wear the BG gear to compete in PVP is killing the PVP server. There's no reason to run PVE zones when the gear isn't worth the trouble because it doesn't have toughness or PVP specific stats. As I've already said...when no one wants to run zones,they are missing out on 75% or more of the game. This leaves them with nothing but PVP with absolutely no real goals. PVP has become nothing but a mindless grind to get the gear,then go afk until the next set comes out.

The only way they are going to save the server is to either go back to TSO crit mit,or back to the days of KOS/EoF where people actively ran zones when they weren't PVPing for the purpose of being better in PVP by aquiring better gear.”

You sound like you would be happier raiding full time on Antonia Bayle than trying to play a pvp mini game between raids on Nagafen.
Sooner or later you're gonna get all the best gear possible, whether it's through PVP or PVE, and whether or not it takes days, weeks or months you will hit a wall of gear progression. And then what? If you don't enjoy pvp for pvps sake then... well maybe you'd be happier in WoW or something. Or maybe that Rifts game coming out.

ARCHIVED-Bosconi · Aug 12, 2010

Truck@Venekor wrote:

“Bosconi wrote:

“You're exaggerating, because PvE gear is still a very viable option in PvP.”

No,it's not. Not like it was in KOS and TSO. Sure,you can flip out one or two pieces,but in the end..it isn't going to make a lick of difference. What you might have gained by adding those pieces will only be subtracted from your survivability.
If the lack of population and open world PVP isn't a direct result of seperating PVE and PVP,then what is the cause? Please tell me so we can find some way to adress it.
The way I see it: no one wants to do instances or raid anymore because it wont help them in PVP. People get bored quickly of doing nothing but PVPing for cheap gear that everyone else has. People quit playing because they no longer have any motivation.
If you see some flaw in my argument,please tell me.”

2 pieces of red adorn equipment is an understatement when PvE accessories are truly superb.

ARCHIVED-Crismorn · Aug 12, 2010

Neskonlith wrote:

“Crismorn wrote:

“So you are not only fine with the worst PVE players on your PVE server getting the same rewards as the very best, but you also agree that is the best system to date.
Staying anon is pretty much the smartest move you could have made”

Look in the mirror.
Not only do you energetically troll the board of a server you are clueless about, but you are appearing awfully lazy in gathering your information. Don't be lazy. Lurk moar. My name is not anonymous, it has been Neskonlith since 2005. Neskonlith is one of my active mains on a server you do not play on, a server you have no experience with. No real point attacking me when I'm not coddling your demands to spoon feed you information that is already out there, but go ahead and do so if it makes you feel better!
You don't like the message Nagafen is receiving, fine - all of this means absolutely nothing to you since you do not PVP on a PVP server. You are welcome to roll up a character on Nagafen and learn the realities for yourself, but I suppose that would take too much effort.”

They cant.
0-30 players on each server are capable of raiding at the highest tier out of thousands.

Pvp gear on the otherhand can be aquired with little to no effort, no time restraints, no pre-reqs and no class requirements.
On top of no loss upon death, let alone meaningful loss.

ARCHIVED-dbzone25 · Aug 12, 2010

Lourd@Nagafen wrote:

“Truck@Venekor wrote:

“Bosconi wrote:

“I wouldn't mind GU#58 releasing very powerful pieces that cost 700-1,000 tokens, or even some demanding 2,500 or 5,000 or 10,000 tokens.
There would only have to be the promise that these items would not be reduced in price, though. ;]

That, and there aren't always warfields running with victor bonuses that'd be meaningful to everyone (see the EQ2 PvP panacea link in my thread).
Asiiiide from such a thing, the other issue is also fame decay, which removes the rivalry that fame loss on death from those ranked above, below, or on par with you brought.”

The problem had nothing to do with the cost of PVP items. The problem is a direct result of simplifying PVP and making PVE gear useless in PVP.
People are leaving because the game is boring.(On the PVP servers,atleast.) Raiding and running zones was a massive part of PVP in KoS/EoF and even TSO. People had the drive to do zones and raid to get better gear to be better in PVP.
Making BG's and forcing everyone to wear the BG gear to compete in PVP is killing the PVP server. There's no reason to run PVE zones when the gear isn't worth the trouble because it doesn't have toughness or PVP specific stats. As I've already said...when no one wants to run zones,they are missing out on 75% or more of the game. This leaves them with nothing but PVP with absolutely no real goals. PVP has become nothing but a mindless grind to get the gear,then go afk until the next set comes out.

The only way they are going to save the server is to either go back to TSO crit mit,or back to the days of KOS/EoF where people actively ran zones when they weren't PVPing for the purpose of being better in PVP by aquiring better gear.”

You sound like you would be happier raiding full time on Antonia Bayle than trying to play a pvp mini game between raids on Nagafen.
Sooner or later you're gonna get all the best gear possible, whether it's through PVP or PVE, and whether or not it takes days, weeks or months you will hit a wall of gear progression. And then what? If you don't enjoy pvp for pvps sake then... well maybe you'd be happier in WoW or something. Or maybe that Rifts game coming out.”

You sound like you would be happier playing call of duty where no effort is required to obtain gear to make yourself better at PVP. You just level up and get new shiny guns.
See what I did there?
It's not about Raiding OR PVPing..It's about putting in effort in both area's to improve yourself. Anyone who argues that PVP is better now than it was when getting PVE gear to improve your chances in PVP was an option is out of their mind. PVP has declined to mindless button mashing in the BG's,or mindless button mashing in warfields. Where PVP actually required strategy,skill,and effort put into making your toon better to succeed in KOS/TSO.

ARCHIVED-Bosconi · Aug 12, 2010

Crismorn wrote:

“Pvp gear on the otherhand can be aquired with little to no effort, no time restraints, no pre-reqs and no class requirements.
On top of no loss upon death, let alone meaningful loss.”

All the more reason for you to support warfields bonus revisions like those mentioned in the EQ2's PvP panacea thread in my signature, instead of trolling this thread with the same point over and over. ;D

Truck@Venekor wrote:

“Lourd@Nagafen wrote:

“You sound like you would be happier raiding full time on Antonia Bayle than trying to play a pvp mini game between raids on Nagafen.
Sooner or later you're gonna get all the best gear possible, whether it's through PVP or PVE, and whether or not it takes days, weeks or months you will hit a wall of gear progression. And then what? If you don't enjoy pvp for pvps sake then... well maybe you'd be happier in WoW or something. Or maybe that Rifts game coming out.”

You sound like you would be happier playing call of duty where no effort is required to obtain gear to make yourself better at PVP. You just level up and get new shiny guns.
See what I did there?
It's not about Raiding OR PVPing..It's about putting in effort in both area's to improve yourself. Anyone who argues that PVP is better now than it was when getting PVE gear to improve your chances in PVP was an option is out of their mind. PVP has declined to mindless button mashing in the BG's,or mindless button mashing in warfields. Where PVP actually required strategy,skill,and effort put into making your toon better to succeed in KOS/TSO.”

TBH Truck, you're giving yourself to excessive hyperbole.
FPSes don't have the sustained, static community, and current PvP does take PvE performance to at least get quality spells, or the best accessories from instances, as well!

PvP still requires skill as opposed to "mindless button mashing," because focusing DPS, taunting, snaring, rooting, power draining, and itemizing your character for their greatest lethality is still all very valuable strategy in EQ2 PvP.

ARCHIVED-Bosconi · Aug 12, 2010

yelllowww>[

ARCHIVED-dbzone25 · Aug 12, 2010

“Less time taken to outfit yourself, and no fame loss to worry about are strong forces in the realm of PvP longevity being reduced, and you ignore them to champion returning to universal critical mitigation as you espouse the fallacy that PvE gear still, somehow, isn't viable in PvP, despite live scenarios disproving such lies 24/7.”

Are you contradicting your entire argument here,or am I reading this wrong? This is part of what I've been arguing. Less time to outfit yourself being one of them,but not the whole idea. I don't care about critical mitigation..I don't care what method they use. The problem is PVE gear being useless compare to PVP gear in a PVP situation. If a sorceror in full PVE gear attacks a scout in full PVP gear,that scout is more than likely going to kill them in five seconds or less.
Being FORCED to wear terrible PVP gear to survive instead of being able to uniquely outfit your character in a mix of different PVE gear is not beneficial to PVP servers. It's killing Nagafen,and only you an Neskonlith seem to be oblivious to it.

ARCHIVED-Crismorn · Aug 12, 2010

Was that thread locked?
Did not work for me : (

ARCHIVED-PeaSy1 · Aug 12, 2010

Nariox@Nagafen wrote:

“You're still a noobface in my book Dudoes <3”

QFE <3

Its really easy to say "hey just send it back to TSO, damage and fight were fine and whatnot" but the big difference between between damage output now and then is extremely high so their has to be a ground where the damage increase does take a hit in pvp. Really toughness (to a lower effect) but i also believe their shouldnt be a cookie cutter type of gear that u have to wear to succeed in pvp/pve. What if you lower the affects of toughness as well as attached it to raid ARMOR, i mean this would even be welcome to pve server youde think considering they have their own forms of pvp as well in bgs.
Really something like this would level out the playing field in a more realistic manner, yes end game raiders would have a slight gear advantage but why shouldnt they? They dedicate alot more than the average pvper that logs in a few hours a night to completing their character. Seperating the game within the game by isolating pvp from pve while playing on the same server type is not the solution if that was the case why even put pve content on pvp servers?

ARCHIVED-Bosconi · Aug 12, 2010

Crismorn wrote:

“Was that thread locked?
Did not work for me : (”

It should work now...@_@

ARCHIVED-BlueEternal · Aug 12, 2010

Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:

“Seperating the game within the game by isolating pvp from pve while playing on the same server type is not the solution if that was the case why even put pve content on pvp servers?”

Atleast it would save Nagafen players money! No need to buy the newest expansions if all we do is sit in Commonlands/Antonica leeching, I mean uhhh "putting effort", into getting our brand new pvp armor!

ARCHIVED-Taldier · Aug 12, 2010

Bosconi wrote:

“I think the problem here was that PvP/battlegrounds gear cost had its time requirements reduced far too much.
It would be productive if GU#58 released very powerful pieces that cost 700-1,000 tokens, or even some demanding 2,500 or 5,000 or 10,000 tokens (or 350/500/1,250/2,500/5,000 of 2 battlegrounds token types).
There would only have to be the promise that these items would not be reduced in price, though. ;]

That, and there aren't always warfields running with victor bonuses that'd be meaningful to everyone (see the EQ2 PvP panacea link in my thread).
Asiiiide from such a thing, the other issue is also fame decay, which removes the rivalry that fame loss on death from those ranked above, below, or on par with you brought.

It could've also been a bad move to put writ givers in immunity areas only.
Maybe, a positive change would be moving PvP writ givers to be only in contested PvP spots.
While there may be a lot of centralized ganking, it's on the outskirts of this that many healthy PvP encounters may be found.”

Requiring more tokens for gear is meaningless if it takes no effort to get the tokens.
The problem isnt that the amount of tokens required has been decreased. Its that the amount of effort required to earn a token has decreased.
If you have to actually kill someone in pvp to earn a token, pvp becomes "on average" equivalent or greater in difficulty to killing something in pve. But you dont have to kill anyone anymore. You only have to be nearby while someone dies.
There is a huge difference between 6 people killing 6 people and 40 people killing 6 people. And the 40 people should not be rewarded with the same reward as the 6.
You cannot attack a x4 mob with 200 people and have each member of the raid get a piece of smart loot.
Loot/tokens should always be generated based on how many corpses are on the ground, not how many people hit them.
If 1 person kills 10 people that should be 10 rewards for him. If 10 people kill 10 people thats 10 rewards to be divided between 10 people so they each should be rewarded 1 time. If 30 people kill 10 people thats 10 rewards to be divided between 30 people so either they each get 1/3 of a reward or a random 10 are rewarded.
Any other system is simply duping rewards out of thin air.

ARCHIVED-Neskonlith · Aug 12, 2010

Taldier@Venekor wrote:

“Loot tokens should always be generated based on how many corpses are on the ground, not how many people hit them.
Any other system is simply duping rewards out of thin air.”

How is that any different from PVE group updates?

PVE = group kills PVE mob and everyone get kill credit and quest updates.
PVP = group kills player and everyone gets update credit if victim not on /recent.

ARCHIVED-BlueEternal · Aug 12, 2010

Neskonlith wrote:

“Taldier@Venekor wrote:

“Loot tokens should always be generated based on how many corpses are on the ground, not how many people hit them.
Any other system is simply duping rewards out of thin air.”

How is that any different from PVE group updates?

PVE = group kills PVE mob and everyone get kill credit and quest updates.
PVP = group kills player and everyone gets update credit if victim not on /recent.
”

Have you ever seen 20 people fighting one Level 90^^^ mob for a quest update? I didn't think so. Have you ever seen 20+ people fighting 6 people? I guarantee you have.

ARCHIVED-Bosconi · Aug 12, 2010

Neskonlith wrote:

“Taldier@Venekor wrote:

“Loot tokens should always be generated based on how many corpses are on the ground, not how many people hit them.
Any other system is simply duping rewards out of thin air.”

How is that any different from PVE group updates?

PVE = group kills PVE mob and everyone get kill credit and quest updates.
PVP = group kills player and everyone gets update credit if victim not on /recent.
”

I agree with Neskonlith that that perspective is null, but I wouldn't mind writs returning to two base-class requirements, either. ;D

Aaand Crismorn I apologize, it seems updating one's profile doesn't immediately apply to the signature, so I shall fashion for you a new link in this post.
EQ2's PvP Panacea - Please, post your point of view.
For some reason, teh link was defaulting to users\list instead of posts\list...

ARCHIVED-goose1123 · Aug 12, 2010

Taldier@Venekor wrote:

“Any other system is simply duping rewards out of thin air.”

You need to remember who you are talking to. Seliri sees nothing wrong with duping.

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