GU#51 Fighter Changes Discussion

We have become popular with TSO content because we can tank zones AND provide DPS. Now it would appear that they will nerf the ability to do BOTH simutaniously. Am I understanding the purposed changes correctly?
I have read through the Brawler thread where DEV's have chimed in, but I (being a Zerker) did not want to derail the thread from it's original intent. I do however want to discuss how these changes will effect game play for us Zerkers. I have pulled all the relevant DEV comments from the Brawler thread.
Any thoughts from other Zerkers?

Aeralik wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.

i've already said what i needed to say on the subject, which is:

• dps will DPS with or without a hate meter on trash and it will always be the tanks fault if they can't stay at the top of the hate list.
• current hate for warriors is marginal most of the time, not as solid as it once was which is why we were given the additional tools to deal with it. but as many said, the time when we those tools are all on refresh and mobs still are peeling is the day we no longer are tanks, so a fine line is already in place and hopefully it won't be crossed.
• keep in mind by actually being able to tank in defensive stance with more hate generation naturally, you will also be able to use more offensive gear for additional hate/dps when the time allows for it, so just because we still currently cannot tank and maintain aggro defensively does not mean the sky is falling.
• given the last point, devs need to understand WHY we have the harder time tanking and holding aggro defensively, our ability to hit the mobs needs to be in line with other fighters in this area(maybe even moreso because of how weak our CAs are).

Kordran wrote:

I was going to take this approach when I thought changes were coming with GU#52, but then I reread the post and realized it was GU#51. I am not usually the "Chicken Little" type, but I was just curious if there WAS any additional information.
I know regardless of what is said now, until the changes hit the test server, they are just words. I will be testing it once it hits.

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

My primary concern is that we just got some needed tanking changes with TSO and that the new changes might depreciate the upgrades we did get with TSO. Zerkers have always used DPS to gain hate, but if they are reducing how much our DPS adds to our hate gain, then I am concerend that mobs WILL be peeled from us more than previously.
Kordran is right though....I guess I should wait to see the numbers.

Kordran wrote:

Yes people should wait until they see and test the changes. I'm sure the patch notes will cause a lot of people to freak out but I think if you try them out they won't be as bad as you think. So make sure to copy a character over to test and also get some or your non fighter friends to copy as well. Actually testing the changes is pretty important and the best feedback we can get.

Aeralik wrote:

Thank you Aeralik for chiming in on this post as well. I quoted you from the Brawler thread as I did not want to derail from that thread's intent (Brawler issues). I know you cannot comment about when these changes will go live, but do we have a time frame of when they will hit TEST or how long we will have to test the changes?

Aeralik wrote:

Why? its a bit late when the stuffs already on test, SoE don't have a long history of changing things once it gets that far.
As a paladin, I currently struggle to stay alive but don't struggle for hate, and have 7 blue AoEs. Small wonder we are wondering how we are going to be neutered into 2nd rate guardians as the other single target tank.

Aeralik wrote:

I HAVE to assume that whatever changes are made, they will be making tanks more sticky, not less. Right now My guild group has to run with a pally and a gaurdian in order for the swash, warlock, and assasin to unload thier dps in AoE encounter situations. Even then we find hate bouncing around. Tanking in Defensive right now is just not an option for either of them. D-stance is meaningless since right now tanks are completely dependant on DPS to hold agro.
I am curious if any changes are going to be made to the rogue offensive and defensive stances as well. Not that any Rogue ever uses the defensive stance anyway.

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

Well, in an expansion where they return to multimob encounters it makes sense that paladins and guardians will fight tooth and nail to avoid being reduced to only holding aggro on single targets. (not to mention if you can hold aggro on multiple targets that translates to being able to hold aggro on 1 even easier since any AoE's you use will hit 1 target just as well as 3).
As for how it can be done - it wouldn't be that hard, if you're ready to weather the outcry. Nerf Amends, nerf sigil of heroism, combine a few AOEs into one then remove several, reduce AAs that improve AoE damage. Based on other comments I'd say it's almost a 99% in odds that you can kiss Amends and Sigil of Heroism's current hate generation goodbye unfortunately. Hopefully it's replaced by enough other abilities that you can compensate.

Deekin@Venekor wrote:

This is odd, because what I've found is that my 'zerker can't depend on DPS to hold aggro. I'd tested it in beta and seen it confirmed time and time again now that TSO is live: 1 point of damage is about 1/2 point of hate or less. My bread and butter for holding aggro is my taunts and things which proc hate directly. It's meant changes in my AA build (deemphasize damage, emphasize defense and hate), my gear (dump the stuff with offensive bonuses on it in favor of things with hate procs or +aggression or defensive bonuses) and my combat style (never dish out damage when you've got a taunt usable). Our paladin's similarly found that things like Sigil of Heroism have become indispensable, and the DPS classes are having to make heavier use of their dethreats (modulo being the target of a pally's Amends or something).
GU 52 has me tempted to burn the hard-drive space on a test server installation. I get the feeling that it's going to shift things even further in this direction, and woe is me if I'm not prepared to adjust.

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

Let me stop you right here. "and the DPS classes are having to make heavier use of their dethreats". The scouts and mages in my guild do not need their dethreats. Want to know why? Because I use dps as a primary for holding aggro, things like taunts and threat procers are only boosters.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having taunts actually mean something so I can control my own aggro, and hold it in full defensive better. But we need to be able to use dps as a form of aggro as well, let the penalty remain survivability. Let tanks choose their path, and give flavor and versatility to each class. Otherwise everything gets too boring and noone wants to play.

Grimmly@Unrest wrote:

We're currently aiming for mid-next week to get the first round of stuff up on the Test servers and I believe it should be there a minimum of three weeks.
As the person who has been pushing the changes the developers make to the Test servers for the past couple years I can guaranttee that we change - a lot - of stuff based on the feedback we get from the Test servers!
- Kirstie

Airbornee@Crushbone wrote:

Possibly, but I've not seen that. Sure I can keep a fight under control using DPS, but between the need for survivability in the harder instances (unless you're running them in raid gear, which if you are I'm going to discount your experience just as I'd discount the experience of someone running overland solo content in a full group wearing RoK instance gear) and the fighter damage changes I simply have an easier time if I treat threat level (taunts, hate procs, etc.) as my primary concern and damage purely as an additional tool to help maintain it. Everything I've seen so far seems to point to the devs moving towards having the tank's role be keeping the mob's attention and staying alive, leaving the killing to the DPS guys. NB: this is one reason I'm looking forward to the hate meter or, better yet, actual hate numbers in the logs (if the devs include them). Right now I can only judge how easy or hard it is to hold aggro by a guesstimate based on how readily the DPS seems to pull aggro off me. With numbers or even just a meter we'll know how big a difference it makes if I go heavy on taunts vs. going for high damage.
As for making survivability the penalty, it probably won't work. To let a tank in full offensive mode survive, they'd have to tone the mobs down to the point where they wouldn't be any challenge at all for a tank in full defensive mode with a good healer and high DPS backing him up. And if they do that we'll hear no end of complaints that it's all too easy.

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

you are correct and a number of people often forget these things as they progress which can be issues for lesser geared tanks.

I just hope they really considered every detail and it doesn't end with something like us in def stance unable to hit anything but air like it is now resulting in less Beserk procs resulting in less time Adrenaline works resulting in a heavy nerf to our tank ability.
So next week we'll see if they had stuff like this in mind. (I just think of the change for items modifying spell cancelling the spell when unequipping the item and then the same thing happenend when hostile buffs disarmed items and they withdrew the change.)

Kirstie wrote:

Thank you for providing this information Kirstie. I knew that the GU was targeted for late Jan or early Feb release, but I had no idea when changes would hit TEST.
Bottom line is any one who is interested in these changes (from a tank or transfer standpoint) should be sure to copy toon to test and find out for themselves how mechanics are going to work. The more feedback we can provide, the better chance we have of not getting OVERLY nerfed.

Bremer wrote:

I think they'll try. I know the TSO changes left my 'zerker in pretty good shape: a good tanking build still left me dealing good damage, just not the high damage I had before. The key I think is in not screaming about just the fact it's changed but in laying out exactly why the changes are bad in a way you can't compensate for, with concrete examples. For instance, I don't think the devs will pay much attention to complaints that 'zerkers can't do damage because reduced offensive skills mean they aren't hitting as much. But complaints about our abilities that generate hate when we hit a mob not generating hate correctly because our reduced offensive skills mean we aren't hitting the mobs, with parse numbers showing the low hit rate on those specific abilities, that might get more attention. We had this same thing happen during TSO beta, after all, with the proposed and then withdrawn change to reduce the effectiveness of outlevelled gear and abilities.

We'll see what happens when test hits, but I am of the opinion that offensive and defensive stance should follow their names. In that defensive should deal with greater defenses at dps penalty, while offensive should provide increased dps with defensive penalty. A tank should be able to generate equal hate in either stance. Leave it up to the player to decided how offensive or defensive to be. A tank should be able to hold a mob on itself no matter what stance and buffs its running.

yes, the #1 issue i can envision with the changes is our hit rate in defensive, it will have to be addressed or prepare to hear alot of zerks saying "i can't hold aggro no matter what i do". perhaps give zerks a skill modifier or something even something hidden so as to not disrupt other fighters into thinking things are unbalanced in our favor, just to allow us to actually hit the mobs at a reasonable rate to keep up while tanking defensively since it will be required.

Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:

I agree with the idea that offensive and defensive stances should be just that. however why is it believed in a sense that these stances you negatively effect you also? While in defensive stance I see no need to include a neg to my weapon skills. making My hit rating sucks doesnt to me show I am more defensive. The need for tons of plus slashing skill items annoys me to no ends. Just so I can hit a mob. Those slots could be better used for plus defensive gear to go along with using a D stance. But what do I know, I have only played these games for entirely too long. I simply think that the stance should buff our abilities and not weaker anything in return. The stances should simply improve. Ex. In D stance improve my mit/avoid/agression/hate generation no reason to add a penalty.
I am only curious if I am alone in the idea that a stance should improve on you skills, if the improvement is done properly why would you even need to include a penalty?