I know it's only 2ish weeks into the expansion, but... I'm kind of worried. First of all, I really love the new zones. They're super fun and imaginative and... fun! But... (and I mean no disrespect) I worry that the average player-base isn't ready for them. When I run them with guildmates, we're generally fine because we notice parallels with raid encounters that we've battled night after night after night. But the folks who are used to basic turn and burns with one special script element seem super overwhelmed. I spent 4+ hours in Highhold the other night in a quasi-pug. It was comical. And, no, we didn't kill the final name. My ability to micromanage what everyone needs to pay attention to at all moments pales in comparison to leaders I know... (Tip of the hat to you, friends!) After each wipe, I'd repeat every element of the fight with emphasis on the particular failed element of the pull... over and over and over. Each time, a person responding with, "oh? what? hmmm?" It was fail... complete fail. At any point, did (or would) you consider making a challenge and non-challenge version for some of these encounters? (Challenge being what they are and non-challenge with an element removed.) People on the server just seem pretty discouraged and forming groups is super rough... and this is sad this early in an expansion. If this isn't a possibility, I suppose I'd rather the encounters remain untouched (no flat nerf bats, please... the fights really are fun). But... I am worried.
I think with the amount of heroic (and event heroic, neat!) zones available, that at some point in the near future, a progression list will probably be drawn up by some of the more dedicated players, showing the less geared or less.. erm.. talented? players what they can expect difficulty-wise and what they should be rocking gear-wise in order to soften the curve. For example, the Zavith'loa heroic is fun and not a complete snooze-fest, but then you go to Brokenskull Bay: Bilgewater Falls, and boy can that be rough! Most of the folks that I've noticed talking about heroics seem to acknowledge that and inform the rest of the players.
Personally, I like the idea that there is an actual element of progression to the Heroic Zones this time around. What we had in ToV - with people facerolling Halls and Labs on like Day 1 - was stupid. People should work their way up to harder zones. (And just to be clear, by "people" i don't mean "you scrubs" here or anything like that. I mean everyone, including me. I've only done 6 out of the 15 (?) avail heroics so far. So i'm in the same progression boat). There are 3 very easy heroics. 3 more that are harder but doable with SOME new gear. Beyond that, yes, you need new gear and to not completely suck. I did Ossuary and (and all but last named) of HH yesterday in a pure pug. It was a pug that had no players from the server's top 2 guilds. So this was not some elite super-pug and many people had issues with following basic instructions and no one had "amazing" new gear. But after many wiped, we managed to kill a lot of stuff. I think this is how it should be for heroics. Random pugs wearing last expac's gear should absolutely NOT be doing the top zones in the 2nd week of expac. Random pugs after they farm the other heroics and gear up? Sure, they should have a chance if they don't suck. But random pugs had problems running Labs too and it was stupidly easy... I posted this elsewhere, but i'll repost it here: just like last expac there was a big red warning message about "you need X crit chance to do this zone", there needs to be a similar message of "you need X resists and X pieces of AoM armor" for AoM. Those zones are clearly designed for a certain level of gear, but people are completely clueless about what they need to do them, which leaves poor group leaders with the old "don't suck pls", which doesn't really encourage anything positive. Also, itemization is a bit messed up. Ossuary - which is one of the harder zones - was dropping these completely garbage charms (upgrades to HKC dmg-type-change charms) while the Dino zones drop some amazing charms like EV version 2.0 So, on one hand - hey, if you can't get a good group, you don't need to worry about doing the harder zones, because the l33t gear is in the easy ones anyway. But on the other hand, why even bother spending 2 hours doing the hard zones when they drop mostly crap? (there ARE some nice drops.. but very inconsistent.)
I have to agree with you. There are a lot of people playing catch- up with this expansion, which is great- really! I love to see people on and running this content! It's also bad, though as well, because the knowledge is lacking. Or the gear... or the spell upgrades, or they aren't using adornments, or the blue stats are all wrong for their character, or their AA spec isn't quite right, or they didn't get the memo last expansion about the yellow, blue and green gems... And there are talent issues, and knowledge/apathy issues, and ADDOMGSHINY issues. There's just... a lot. A whole lot. I'm not saying that the game should be made easier or that people should be handed gear... I do wonder if there shouldn't be something in game to help players learn... A permanent NPC or tutorial zone that scales to your level perhaps? Even perhaps a testing zone where you can try on different gear and test out what works for your character? I feel like there would be stronger players if that were true. A /beta zone! I'm going to stay positive and keep trying to help people... /nod It will get better with time.
It will end up just like last expansion where the majority of players rarely sat foot outside the first 3 locations.
the problem with making it so darn easy to level a toon is people fail to learn how to play the game. There was a time when you had confidence that a max level toon had basic understanding of their class and game mechanics because of the journey it took to get there. Now you can to 100 from 1 in a small timeframe, depending on the amount of playtime you have, under two weeks isn't unreasonable and that journey to 100 requires little challange and mostly button smashing. SOE is insane that the only content that requires thought is endgame content.
ToV closed the gap between high end heroic gear and entry level raid gear. Seems that AoM is closing the gap on the strategy side. I like it, a lot. Yet I share Nezette's concerns to some extent. Don't change the scripts please. More hints, sure - especially failure messages that call out specific group members.
Well if that ends up being the case, at least the difference will be that last expac, "the first locations" were Halls and Labs, which were meant to be the LAST zones, but ended up being the first, because they were easy and dropped amazing loot and now the "first locations" will actually be the FIRST locations - as it's meant to be. But i disagree. There was only one instance in ToV that wasn't immediately doable by the clueless and that was VD. And after a few months, VD became doable with just about any pugs. People geared up and learned the strats and it stopped being restrictive. I pug A LOT, so I had the experience of running VD with anything from top tier folks, to completely clueless folks and by the middle of the expac the latter were managing it just fine. Not everyone raids. So for a decent chunk of the population, the harder heroics is as far as they'll ever go in progression. Why deprive them of something to work towards by making it all easily doable on day1?
I don't want to deprive folks, defilerfriend. And, I pug a lot, too! I guess I'm thinking of that one CoE zone... Wurmbone? I don't remember, I only played a month of CoE... Where you could give the hard mode mob a pull or 20, but you didn't just waste 4 hours when the folks in your group just couldn't deal. I'm not an elitist *******. I don't immediately inspect folks or judge their hp pools or critique T1s who do substantially less dps than me. I enjoy playing with people who enjoy playing. I don't want to be forced into becoming a judgmental jerkface to just casually run through heroics, you know? (To be clear, I'm not saying you're an *******, or elitist... I'm more so distinguishing myself from certain guildfriends of mine.)
I don't think the issues we (well my experience at least) are having is from lack of gear. Its flat out just not knowing how to press buttons. You can have all the gear in the world and still be subject to a fail condition. Some of these zones are brutal (by heroic standards) and you can't get them finished with normal PUGs. Its becoming very discouraging and I've kinda shied away from doing heroics until more people get experience/better gear. I like the idea of a HM/EM designation.
It took over 6 months before even the top 20% of players were doing these instances. Even at the end there are a lot of players who avoided them cause they were 'too hard'. You might be surprised the number of casual players that rarely did the Temple instances, and the number that never finished Dom.
I must admit that surprises me. Halls and Labs were pretty easy and after a few months plenty could be carried through by players in 3/3 potent. But VD I agree with. Plenty didn't see it. I ran it a lot in PUGs, but some of my characters didn't get many shots at it, if any. The most frustrating was my ranger, my main. I doubt I ran it more than 5 times on him because there never seemed to be a slot available for him. My dirge, coercer, zerk and priests had a lot easier time getting in a group. Two of my fighters never ran it, but that was probably because I chose to use my zerk every time. Back to topic: this xpac is the first in 3 or 4 where I haven't been right at the forefront of heroics at the start. I haven't had the time yet. But I want them challenging.
I think these are challenging, but they are challenging players in a way they are less apt to accept. So much of the heroic progression is based upon a gear check now and its gear that players don't find all that sexy. Taking gear on my warlock that I know is an immediate 30% reduction in my dps so that I can survive the next zone isn't something to be too thrilled about at this stage of the game. Last expansion, in the first few weeks we were powering over everything but dom, and dom even if you had 3g gear in every slot, was tuned too high and would squash anything but a near perfectly built group. It was later changed to be more reasonable and things worked fairly well. But you didn't get stomped zoning into Stratum if you didn't already have gear from Nexus/Hive. This expansion, you are just getting plowed over if you are a non-tank class and didn't switch to the new gear for more mit/hp/resists. I'm sure as people get more green gemed gear, things will start to shift back to the dps upgrades people enjoy more, but for some its a tough pill to swallow to actually progress thru the heroic tier rather than jump to the end.
Right... and if you have EM and HM versions, they'll still be challenging. This is the first time the instances have actually been fun and I enjoy it... I'd be sad if they nerfed them outright (and honestly, I foresee this happening because people are legit frustrated and unable to complete them because colors are hard... using your class's unique abilities is hard... paying attention is hard...), so I see this as a way to keep more folks happy. Maybe the challenge version can have a higher chance of a master or a gem or a rare item or... something. (Like Ragefire... I've killed the EM version lots of times, usually after trying to run the HM version with folks to help them learn... but after a while, it's nice having an option to at least finish the mission.) People seem to need the gear off of the crates that they can't seem to get due to failing... I just want to play with people... can y'all roll alts on CB? Devfriends, how about you, too? You can be super secret alts if you want. I need pugging buddies. My guildfriends don't trust me to form groups anymore because I invite anyone/everyone.
I like the engagement of the new heroics. As a lifelong heroic PUGer this is the best buffet EQ2 has put out yet. If they had EM they could could just have the same script limitations as the solo instances I saw in the Sig line. _ _ _ But arguably, if a player isn't that engaged aren't they going to solo/duo the solo/advanced solo zones because they have less time/attention/focus anyhow? Turning all the existing Heroic AoM's into a label called HM (script only) and another version called EM (solo scripts) wouldn't really do much for the PUG pool. For a couple of weeks the players least engaged would go through in 6 person pinata fests and then leave anyhow while the rest of us who are here > 6 months per expansion pack try to PUG up for the scripted version (newly minted HM labels) with fewer players in the pool to draw from. _ _ _ If they did EM Heroics with solo scripts it should drop Advanced Solo gear and boxes. That would probably be ok and might help gear up all those alt tanks who don't want to solo at their low DPS through Advanced Solos just to get gear to start Heroic groups. Contesteds could be used for efficient Alt XPing and EM Heroics could be used for easy alt gear up and currency (3 times 2 for All Access = 6) to pad an account for player's mains once all the readily accessible zones have been done for the day at 10 (20 All Access) or 15 (30 All Access). The EM could have 1/3 less hit points to make it faster too such that EM grouping is easier than Advanced Duoing. Solos are nice but on lower DPS classes players would rather play in groups where it takes less constant effort to get more. _ _ _ I really didn't do Advanced solos in TOV as it was faster to PUG a heroic version and required less attention from me to do so while I was swimming in etyma like Scrooge McDuck in his moneybin. Group EM Heroic 'Advanced Solos' could be pegged for easy Alt boosting for players with primary mains.
OK, this is from what is likely a typical casual yet EQ2 addicted player. I do not like instances with uber mobs that do things like hit you with death countdown dots, hulk out in a short period of time or one-shot you if you don't have the perfect set up of gear. I will skip such instances entirely. Did so in the last two expansions. And will likely do the same this time around. Which is sad, as I would likely enjoy doing the instances if I felt I had some chance of handling them. A solo instance should be soloable by any class. Sadly, this has not been the trend for a while now. I realize that this thread is mainly about the group content, but the solo ones are also heroic, and sometimes can feel impossible to do for some of us. I cannot group with other than my husband and son because our son is autistic. So doing PuGs to get better gear is definitely not an option either. There are a lot more like me than some players realize. Anyway, just felt like posting my side of things here.
Tears of Veeshan had a perfect progression in my opinion. The first 3 heroic zones could be done by almost anyone. The next two required paying some attention. If you just kept wailing on Bolgin you never got anywhere, you actually had to follow the scripts. ToV Labs 1 and 2 required stepping up your game and watching mob behavior. They were mini-raids. Labs 3 was rougher with some DPS checks, and then Dominion wtfpwned people. It's something we had to build up for. ToV gave group players a full progression. Of course hardcore raiders are going to say that ToV group zones were a cakewalk. So far, AoM seems overtuned in every aspect of gameplay.
Hi guys, Really agree with Nezette and Feldon, I'm afraid the difficulty level in AoM Heroics is a bit high and will make grouping difficult when not in serious Raiding Guild. I'm in a casual Raiding Guild, we are all in ToV Raid-Gear, we add AoM Jewelry (mostly MC pieces) but we can only complete the 'easy' heroics like Lost Cavern or Hidden Caldera with the most-involved guildies and correct classes. Solo and adv solo is easy, outland named are even stupidly easy. I know that 'stupidly easy' is different for everyone; I like progression - but dam - to progress you need to be able to start ! In ToV, we couldn't run Dominion first and that was really ok, but in AoM ppl feel like they just can't run the easy stuff and you can only group with high-end players to run with success an heroic instance. I like uber-players group but I also want to have fun with ppl a bit less hardcore. Again np if you need 2 healers for middle or hard instances but here you need 2 healers (Unless perfect group) for any Heroics so 1 Tank, 2 healers, maybe 1 utility, the 2 dps must be very very high... I like of course scripted fights but dam give a bit more messages / emote to figure what is happening. Not fun after an hour or more to get to last named in Lost Caverns, trying to understand your ACT logs for ages to be able to beat that last T-Rex one... I'm not hardcore player but I've been playing several hours a day since Sentinal Fate expac (a bit b4 even), so I feel like stupid having such a hard time to get a group able to complete the easiest heroics. Would really like more progressive difficulty in group content. Anyway, wish you all the best, EQ2 is really a great game.
Personally, I like a bit of a challenge whether I'm soling, grouping, or raiding, however i do feel a good number of the heroic zones need to be looked at. I would like to see scripts made a little clearer and maybe a few mobs damage output adjusted. Specifically I'm thinking of the first mob in Ossuary: Sanguine fountains for scripting, as i can see his bed red circle on the ground, but he is doing something else that one shots us that for the life of me I can't see when or where it's coming from. For damage output I'm thinking of the big spider in the second Highhold zone (800k ticks with over 120k resists and at max range makes me sad), and the big rock monster in the first temple zone (Any time ToV raid geared tanks start getting one shotted also makes me sad.) I'm sure there are others, but I'll be damned if I've been able to pull em yet. Oh and the last fight in Brokenskull Bay: Hoist of the Yellow Jack is stupid, tedious, and frustrating from start to finish.
Raises hand, I quit ToV before they tuned Dom down, I was in groups that could kill the first named but I didn't have the gear for the second named and he squashed me. *edit* I had little to no problems in the other temple zones (other than really crappy RNG), they were fun, challenging and if you didn't at least bring your B+ game you were going to have issues.
