Eq2 could use an overhaul of classes and mechanics, including AA skills, effects, and spell systems

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by local.man, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. local.man New Member

    The class design of EQ2 is a bit outdated.
    The classes just play too identically in feel, aside from the obvious principle of range/melee/healer.

    Weapons have too little influence on the abilities and the gameplay.
    There is no real reason to carry a two-handed axe or rather two one-handed weapons. All the internal CDs and all the abilities have no real relation to this.

    The gameplay isn't affected either, because in the end all the abilities always feel more like spells that you just click through. There are no mechanics, no style chain that builds on each other, no separation of the gameplay whether I now carry two-handed, or wild with faster weapons, but with less damage per blow and with other skills also act differently.

    That has always bothered me in EQ2. The feel of the Monk might be a little different than a Berserker, but in the end it's not really so overwhelmingly different that it's really noticeable.
    It just pops up the numbers differently which for me from a gameplay standpoint, but hardly have any noticeable feedback, you end up pushing through your talents which feel more like spells than real melee talents.

    The archer in the game also nimbly pushes through his spells, which don't really give a real feeling of an archer, simply because then they also don't trigger any cocking times, they don't create a chain, they don't give a real feeling of an archer feeling.

    To put it briefly, it all seems like it's out of a box and the mechaninks are extremely similar. In the end, the AA skills hardly change anything, but only add more automatisms to the existing, yet very monotonous gameplay and then produce more numbers.

    Then also from the animations or the effects here, it all seems too einhitlich after spells, instead of cool well animated and also from the feedback well mediated melee, for example.

    As an assassin I don't need magic effects that work like spells when I ram my dagger into somebody's back. Here, the magic effects must be greatly reduced, at least for most classes, and exchanged for good animated and well-mediated combat animation. The enemy can also emit a torrent of blood, sure, but he doesn't have to glow like a rainbow because of it.
    The Assa, or the Berserker etc. needs good mechanics and melee styles.
    The gameplay of the Berserker should also immediately change significantly when he uses a two-handed weapon and the fight is more massive, slower, but the swings and attacks are more powerful and more forceful.

    Especially with the Berserker this is a good example.
    He fights a lot via auto attacks and generates his numbers that way.
    It would be better if he got a wrath system instead of a mana bar. He builds up anger via his auto attacks and then you as a player can reduce this anger again via his abilities through styles and style chains and the gameplay is completely different.

    EQ2 urgently needs something like this to bring a breath of fresh air to all the classes.

    You can also do a lot with the mages.
    A slightly better distribution of the magical abilities would improve the gameplay significantly.

    That is, that an elementalist does not click wildly through all the elements, that is so without statement. It would be far better if he specializes in 2 elemental directions via AAs and skill selection and these then result in synergies and there are also forbidden combinations like, fire does not go together with frost/water magic.

    So you can choose for example fire and air and now you have besides fire magic like flame balls and flame waves, also wind magic like whirlwinds, gusts of wind etc..
    Through the AAs you can now combine the wind magic with the fire magic into new spells. If you create a flame area on the ground and cast a whirlwind into it, it becomes a pillar of fire and burns the enemies around it more and more to ashes with every second.
    Or take frost magic combined with storm magic and create icy winds that freeze the enemies more and more and slow down the movement a lot.
    Or ice with earth magic. You freeze the enemy and then drop a stone blast on them and can do tremendous damage when the enemy is crushed.

    These are the kinds of things the game needs far more of.
    Just some excitement, and better class based convincing mechanics.

    A mage does more arcane stuff and less elemental stuff, that's what the elementalist does. Also, some separation would do well. Boundaries are what make things interesting.

    Yeah what do you guys think?

    Where are the weaknesses for you and what would you like to see changed, apart from pure number crunching?

    Let's just not attack each other's discussion, but exchange ideas freely.

    Maybe we will then be able to recognize a visible problem.

    All the best.
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  2. rutro86 New Member

    I think you want a new game design...is what I think. If you have this many faults with the game...I would not play.
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  3. Avirodar Well-Known Member

    I completely understand the desire to see a better game. It's a good thing. But it is worth considering what amount of resources would be required to make certain changes. Resources being both financial, and skill/knowledge based.

    The state of AAs makes for an easy example. I have lost count of how many times promises were made for AA balancing and/or class balancing, that failed to happen, or was poorly implemented. I was often left wondering if the people who made changes actually play/understand the game?

    It's OK if you believe the people responsible for the current state of AAs and class balance would be capable of a successful major class overhauls, but I would respectfully disagree.

    Have you seen anything in the last decade that makes you think those in control of EQ2s finances are willing to invest anything into EQ2? Because I only see the opposite, with a relentless squeeze being applied.

    Like I said at the start, no harm in wanting to see a better game. I try to keep a view of realism, rather than optimism or pessimism. The track record of those running EQ2 is difficult to ignore.
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  4. MightyMeaghan Well-Known Member

    I agree that the game needs a bit of an overhaul, but I don't think it needs a redesign from the ground up. There's just a lot of bloat that needs management and a few questionable design choices from the late-half expansions that need to be rethought/revamped/removed/re-something.
    Tkia likes this.
  5. local.man New Member

    Wouldn't it be a very refreshing and really cool thing if the classes were redesigned a bit and became a little more playfully distinct?

    Imagine a monk who, even when played with a two-handed staff, would make completely different movements and the gameplay would change a lot compared to when he fights without any weapons or with fist weapons.

    Or imagine an illusionist who really creates images, phantom monsters that race towards the enemies and scare them, or 2 ghost weapons that distract the enemy and fight against him for a certain duration. You could do that visually and in terms of content.

    After all this time, the great classes deserve a revision and an emphasis on their actual class depth.
    That's what makes RPG so strong, to be able to identify with the class very well and to experience certain game depths in it.

    Imagine a Defiler who is shifted a bit more in the direction of ritual circles and shameful ceremonies, so that his desecrations are also conveyed more effectively and mysteriously dark.
    Or the mystic who conjures and acts more with magic symbols, spell circles, sigil spells and runes as runic writing. A nice contrast to the defiler in a very specific way. If you stage this nicely, you get interesting playstyles and the strong contrast to the rest of the healers.
    Druids work with elemental magic, plants and wildlife, summon fairies, dryads that support, or create a force of nature as a DD interpretation of the class, transform impressively into an animal form and can also be played here via AA with combat maneuvers made for the animal form, and so on.

    This does not all have to be implemented immediately as a large package. But one takes the classes piece by piece and brings this over longer periods.

    Back at the beginning of EQ2 I always found the whole story around good and evil really cool.
    And that there were all the opposing classes. Also that you have specialized in the game only from the simple citizen about class-specific quests to his class.
    That had really good game depth and connected you well with your class.

    That should have been the starting point and this whole principle should have been carried forward.

    Nevertheless, I appeal to the creators to break up the class system, which is getting on in years and is quite constant, and to make the classes more unique and also to better emphasize perceived play styles through mechanics and different resource bases for each class, etc.

    This and a general throttling of the speed would make EQ2 more interesting. Especially now in the phase, since the old MMORPG feeling is more in demand again.
    You can see how everywhere the old principles are even reset. Timeline servers, Classic servers, etc. and these are heavily visited.

    The MMORPG fan community wants in the end much more an old school MMORPG fromj the principles at least, than this eSport, competition and numbers orgy.
    These are somehow completely different game designs, which a real MMORPG fan only a weary smile, but hardly excite him.
    It would be nice for us as players if something were to happen here.

    And EQ2 has such a nice class model after good/evil basically and many from the names sounding classes. If more meat can be put on the bones behind it, much would be gained and a good basis created for further changes.
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  6. Melkior Well-Known Member

    I hope you enjoy that game when it comes out. I'm generally fine with the mechanics as they are now. I'd be thrilled if they just addressed balance and bug squashing prior to content release more. An overhaul as you describe it if attempted would more likely come out as a broken mess for months. I'd rather not experience that. It's OK to dream though! When you win the lottery and buy DPG, feel free to get them working on that!
    Soara2 likes this.
  7. Errrorr An Actual EQ2 Player

    You're basically asking for a whole new game at this stage. Not going to happen.
    Soara2 and Finora like this.
  8. GrannyYylda New Member

    This is literally in Guild Wars 2. Your attacks change completely based on your Weapon - a Staff will be wildly different than an axe, even for casters.

    Mesmers use images of themselves to do damage, distract, etc.

    Note that that is Guild Wars 2, not EQ2. They are different games for a reason.
    Soara2 likes this.
  9. Aenvar Member

    It could use some work, but I don't believe current design is that bad. That being said...

    I think you make a lot of great suggestions, but you also have to consider you can't make radical changes to the game, because normal servers have to coexist with TLP servers, even though they offer completely different experiences. You could go ahead and have separate clients but, honestly, I don't see it happening.
  10. Dristlin Member

    EQ III I would not mind seeing that.
    Soara2 likes this.
  11. local.man New Member

    Yes there may be effort.
    Yes there may be some controlled chaos for a while.

    But the effort could go a long way.
    It doesn't have to be absolutely the sledgehammer method. Especially in the area of AA some things could be done.

    It would be important to refresh the class model after all this time.
    There is also a lot of fun behind it.
    The way could be quite also pulled through with suitable tasks on the class is aligned.
    EQ2 is also strongly based on the many tasks.

    Of course, I admit that it also represents a certain amount of effort and that it is also a quite error-prone undertaking.

    However, I see in the area of skill and the whole class fantasy, especially in the design and game mechanics much room for improvement.

    How often do I think to myself, how much more interesting the gameplay could be, if I just click through my skills with a Melee somewhere, without actually having a real class-related gameplay through a mechanic.

    There my monk knocks down the mobs and I run over my bar. However, style chains could be interwoven into a typical martial arts fighting style.
    If the enemy deflects a blow from the chain, by blocking, dodging, missing, parrying, it has to be started anew.
    The style chain has better and better attacks towards the back and partly, for example, as a conclusion a burning fist blow, or an all-round kick as a magical chi discharge.

    Or take the guardian. Played with shield he gets very cool shield attacks when after blocking, or parrying and therefore plays rather reactive and with strong defensive behavior. But such a shield smash, followed by a then possible cross cut, or hammer blow would be something.

    Where a Brigand fights dirty and throws dirt in the eyes of the enemies, if successful can then perform a double sword thrust into the chest of the briefly disoriented enemy, the Assassin fights a lot with fast dagger attacks and tries to constantly flank the enemy and if successful can apply a throat cut. A short helplessness is necessary for this. For this, the Assa now has many new poisons available, which trigger different things depending on the situation. These are specially made Assassin poisons.... So to speak class mechanics for the Assa, which change the gameplay more to play strongly about poisons and its possibilities.

    The swashbuckler gets a kind of duelist playstyle.
    Unlike the Berserker, who builds up his fury via autoattacks and then lets his styles rain down furiously and wildly on the enemy, the Duelist uses a synergy of lots of self-dodging and precise stabs and elegant fast movements.
    The swashbuckler's fighting style seems very technically proficient and like a learned mastery with a thrusting and stabbing weapon.
    He also uses only a rapier or a stiletto or other one-handed thrusting weapons or swords.
    He is a master of this fighting style and his resource is focus. With enough preparation, which comes when he sets his attacks or elegantly dodges, he can set a final thrust at the end, from a list of possible learnable attacks. Heart thrust, liver thrust, kidney penetration, eye strike, etc.
    These consume some of the focus and create a strong damage combat style.

    Things like this would do the game tremendously well and really tie us in with our class choice. Especially if the learnable talents don't just go into the bar, but are acquired through tasks and quests and challenges.

    But I also understand your objections.

    It seems a little bit like this is a new game. But I see it more relaxed and quite to a certain extent implementable in EQ2.

    Maybe you still have some ideas and criticism about it.
    I think it's good if we philosophize about it, exchange and also express concerns.

    I try to stimulate your imagination a little bit with my examples, to think about these possibilities. And possibly to feel joy in it ;)
    Geroblue likes this.
  12. Melkior Well-Known Member

    Nope. Not really interested in the disruption. Again, I hope someone produces that game for you. I'll take this game with fewer bugs and be extremely happy. Good luck!
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  13. Dude Well-Known Member

    Nope, you were right the first time.

    What you suggest isn't a new game at all. It is how EQ2 was at launch. Unless you think that the developers haphazardly changed the game from what it was to what it is, then what you're asking for is for them to unravel everything they've done in the past 10 years. While many may think that's a great idea, it's just not going to happen.
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  14. Cusashorn Well-Known Member

    Are you going to drum up the thousands of programmers needed to make this happen? EQ2's dev team is small enough as it is, what you're asking is for a brand new game that *WILL* alienate the remaining population of this game.
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  15. MightyMeaghan Well-Known Member

    This is what the emulator community is for.

    But yeah, some of the changes have been pretty damned haphazard over the years.
  16. rutro86 New Member

    This is kind of like liking a "63" Vette, and trying to convince Chevy to remake it with modern electronics. This would cost as much as a new Porsche...so, just buy a Porsche instead. Back in the day, we were a little harsher: "go back to WOW"...LOL!
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  17. Geroblue Well-Known Member

    Those changes wouldn't alienate me at all. But I'm a paper and pencil rpg player at heart.
    Dude likes this.
  18. Elostirion Well-Known Member

    These quotes I feel contain a large fraction of the core of the issue.

    First- I've been gone for 10 years. I'm back mostly coincidentally to the current state of the game. I have some credentials in the area of game design and development, but they are useless now, except for me to tell others how and why they are useless.

    Dristlin/GrannyYylda: There is a lot to be said for a game which has the level-flexibility, environmental-reuse and class-flexibility of GW2 combined with the itemization and progression framework EQ2 has. There could be much worse foundations for EQ3 than those.

    While that may be true, Crusahorn is correct(ish), it will take dozens of programmers (not thousands) to update or develop a new game. And while Crusahorn is correct that such a change will alienate the remaining population of the game, he should remember that the population is "remaining" because many people were alienated by the changes of the past 10 years (and more) and are now gone.

    Dude is right, many of those things in the OP were closer to the original game than now. People complained then about some of those things, and some of those things hindsight have shown were valid complaints and others weren't so much.

    But Dude's fact remains: Good idea or not, they're just not going to happen. Not here, not with this franchise, and frankly not with the game dev industry as a whole right now. Back when this game was being developed there were dozens of games clamoring for the same space- huge immersive worlds designed so that the players can do everything in some facet of the game and scratch nearly every gaming itch in the same product for years and years on end. That has not been the direction of the industry for a long long while now. Minimum Viable Product is the direction- how small and cheap of a game can be made where people are still willing to flood the cash shop. this isnt new- you know it. Given the general economy it will continue, and you know that too.


    Dont ask for big changes. When Mint asks about how you want the itemization/economy in the next expansion to work, politely and thankfully tell them. But Amazon to one side, games like this are dinosaurs. Be happy that the bones of what we once enjoyed are still here to roam in, and enjoy what's left. Don't stress over what's not here, because its never coming.
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  19. local.man New Member

    Thank you for your answers.

    You make me a little sad and thoughtful.
    Your accompanying views first of all to the gametechnical political and financial situation are probably unfortunately not to be dismissed completely from the hand.

    In terms of content, we have unfortunately not yet exchanged and tried to take up the topic and possibly to make it feasible, or to refine it and bring in ideas.

    Basically we keep ourselves with an anticipated rejection about the structural apparent impossibility of the design from coming at all into a positive, in the interest of the player and the genre, developing way.
    We are, so to speak, subliminally agreeing to a path of decline and monetization of the game world, of which others have everything and we are condemned to pay them for these ways. So almost give our o.k. instead of loudly and confidently going down a different path that serves and helps us and the genre.

    Behind this must be some kind of collective guided consciousness manipulation so it seems to me.
    We are set up to nod to the interests of those who end up preventing us from going better and wiser ways in the interest of the players.
    Probably because we have resigned ourselves to the victim role or something....

    Well, then I guess I'll keep playing the MMORPGs of today, which have somehow shed their typical role-playing elements.
    I liked it once to see the level path as the goal and actual content and to play together with others in the co-op principle.

    But basically I'm not even so far about the changes.
    I just see a certain approach to the class mechanics here. The fact that even such things seem to be a matter of impossibility makes me wonder about the quality and the associated joy of playing, whether this should and can really be the future.

    Will the game makers still be able to pick up the players with this kind of MMORPG game worlds and endgame oriented spiral? I think the genre will not be able to survive like this.

    MMORPGs are basically set up completely different in terms of content than what we currently find. It was probably a creeping process that we were interested in at the beginning. As the mistakes became more and more obvious, a return was blocked, because the effort to design an old content dense and MMORPG typical game world was getting bigger and bigger.
    Actually, also a proof of the simple means with which we have basically been distracted all the time and the genre MMORPG has fallen behind.
    Intention for profit maximization, or just a wrong way of development towards another genre called eSport, which they didn't want at all, but which somehow pushed itself more and more into the foreground?

    Actually, this is not the topic I wanted to take up. But obviously this problem is closely interwoven with all the others, and the obvious impossibility of drilling out the class mechanics a bit, because that also involves an effort that you're not willing to pay, etc., is very worrying about where the journey will go.

    So we seem to be caught in a spiral of shallow entertainment in an instance mode from which we carry out more and more shiny and overloaded with values items.
    Otherwise, we run through the game world at a fast pace in solo play or fly at everything with pinpoint accuracy and drop an atomic bomb on the playing field to then immediately deliver the glowing feather as a quest item to the fairy princess.

    Will this satisfy us in the long run?
  20. gambitak New Member

    As a new player that hasn't reached the highest level, I can tell you that this has been my experience.

    All the buttons do the same thing, regardless of what class I'm playing. The countdowns are the same, the damage is so close as to be the same, and the Heroic blinking sequences do the same thing. In the end, my scout classes, tanks and mages are only differentiated by their graphics. I can't get into the RPG part because the game doesn't care about that; the game only cares about the MMO, and for me, not even that. I haven't had but a couple groups and those were with my GF who sometimes plays sitting right behind me.

    There are no advantages or disadvantages to picking a class, especially with mercs in the picture.