im thinkin again bout rolling a scout and wanted to go with the subclass that gives the best group buffs. Any help here is appriciated.:smileywink: Pnaxx
hmm .. we .. the best group buffs .. hard to tell. I think the Troubadur buffs add more to a group. Let me tell you a little story. I have been at a raid in the MT group. Guardian MT, Pala, Templar, Mystic, Troubadur and .. me. Testing different setups to get the best out of our tank. Guess what ^^ I had to leave the group because a Fury or Warden (don't know exactly anymore) added MORE USE through his buffs, then i did. But we are not meant to be the defensive group buffers, we add more to the offense of a group ... no wait .. a guardians can buff the physical attack skills of the group even higher then i can .. i really loved my dirge throughout the game .. but the closer i come to the end, the more i see, how gimped we seem to be in many end-game aspects.
Holy crap someone else is nearing the light, uh oh, its gonna get ugly again. Exactly what has been said since January lol...
Sorry, that's nonsense... We have our advantages which become clear in epicx4 raids. Examine the effects of raid mobs closely and then insepct which skills you have, sometimes adding resistances or slowing the enemy can be worth tenfold the little dd power we lack, compared to other classes. Our offense/defense buffing is pretty neat too. Too many things to put in a single thread. Players should not complain too much about the entire Dirge class being useless etc and rather show up the messed up skills which don't work so they might get fixed some time. (hopefully)
The question was "ARE WE THE BEST BUFFERS" and the answer is NO. Adding Resistances is nice, but a Warlock can buff poison/disease mitigation just as good as we do. Slowing a mob .. nice and cute .. Shammies are better in this, and even some XXXXing Hex dolls slow a mob like we do. Powerdraining .. nice and cute too .. chanters and troubas are better. Claras? A Templar can debuff physical mitigation just as high as we can, without having the need to use concetration for this. Brigants are able to lower the mitigation TWICE as much as we can. Haste? I have Rianas Master I and it adds about 30% .. nice one too .. but again enchanters can buff that one higher, and again without the use of wasting concentration on it. I LOVE my dirge .. i loved playing her since the beginning, but there is definatly some point in the game, where most other classes seem to grow on, and we get stuck. We have indeed the ability to add something to almost every situation, but there is always someone who is better. And when thinking about the endgame .. raids are built up with one intention .. having the best suited classes with you, which are there. And sorry, in most cases we aren't. It's hard to say if other classes are overpowered, or we are just gimped .. but at least we are meant to be the Offensive buffers and debuffers number one .. as we really have no other utility. Tanks tank, other scouts damage, healers heal, mages dps, and so on .. we rely on having the best buffs/debuffs ingame, to be as worthy to have in a group like every other character out there. This is what we were built for, but sadly but true .. we are not. If someone now asks me .. "is it nice to play a dirge" i answer "yes, it is .. as far as you are willing to reroll another char once hitting the endgame" and to bora: Maybe you are a far better Dirge then i am, if you are really adding to a raid as much as an other class in the same situation could do, please tell me how you do this. I don't see one buff/debuff in our setup wich would make us unique enough to be considered a must have, and as i told you, all our buffs/Debuffs are topped by other classes. But maybe i'm just too frustrated by now, as i was one of the dirges always believing, there would be a light at the end of the tunnel .. and there was one .. it was the light of a train coming straight for me, to bang over my head. Message Edited by DocEvil on 05-10-2005 02:12 AM
Of course you are right, there is a class that does everything a bit better, but I consider myself a bit of a jack of all trades. Our skills are not that much worse than the very best ones, but we have them ALL and we can use them according to the situation. But apart from that I absolutely agree with you, we are not the best buffers, but the best allrounders. In my opinion a class is not defined by being the single best choice for a very specific task. Putting a dirge into a group will add more choices to tactics. PS: Besides hex dolls don't slow the attack speed, just move speed. Message Edited by bora77 on 05-10-2005 02:08 AM
there are hex dolls wich lower the attack speed by 5-7% or so .. i think it were the +str ones. The +agi ones slowed the movement, which is again kind of useless
Oh great, didn't know that. I have agility dolls. But then again, how long does it last? the casting time on the dolls is ridiculous
I was once skeptical of our class at a time and then realized some of our potential, and decided to go with that potential, instead of logging in everyday with complete negativity. The game is packed with so many buffs and debuffs by default for so many classes its really hard to think of us shining in those categories. You really have to take a step back and look at the game in a whole before judging how good or how bad your specific class may be. Maybe the roles you think of your Dirge is perhaps not exactly what the game had in mind? I especially had a hard time dealing with this due to comming off of a 75 Bard in FFXI where there sole purpose was buffs/debuffs. As far as who has the best buffs and debuffs in game, heck I dont think that can be answered to be honest. Theres too many variables to consider, each and every mob you face will have some type of edge for your party or raid given by a different style of buffing or debuffing. Do other classes have better stuff then us, sure they do. They are in the same boat as us tho, dont ever forget that. Just as much as many Dirges complain that a specific buff/debuff is not up to par with another class, that other class is complaining right back that another class (perhaps even the Dirge) has stuff better. Its an endless cycle. I dont know how many times people have sent me tells wishing there class was as versatile as ours. And yes, perhaps that is our shining beacon of hope, versatility. No matter what party we are in, no matter what mob we are fighting, we add to our group/raid in some fashion. Not one class is going go completely overwhelm any tough situation, its mingling of classes to get a job done. Why must people feel like there Dirge is completely ****? Is it because when you join that Raid of 23 other people shouts of joy and hails of "OMG the Dirge has arrived, all our worries have past!" are non-existent? So back to the topic, Do Dirges give the best buffs and hows are DPS, given the right situation you can say yes, given the wrong situation the answer is no.
Dirges give two skills which increase dps of the group. Harls Kindling strain and Riannas spiteful sustation. Both of these combined gives 31% haste (master riannas) 7% dps, 46 str, 46 agil, 46 sta, 300 dr(or pr not on dirge atm). To me, this seems like a nice little stack no? Troubs dont get the +dps stuff dirges do, they get some self buff or something. Thus, in a dps group on a raid you'll see inq + chanter + zerker + DIRGE + 2 other melee. Troubs are MT group, they have MT buffs, period. Never have i seen troubador not in MT group, unless mob is casting a disease or poison spell causing over 9k damage. Lastly... ppl say dirges dont buff other classes as well as those other classes. Sure, we can slow.. not as good as a shaman tho. Sure we can mana song, not as good as a chanter tho. Sure we can haste, not like a zerker or inq tho. Sure we can give procs, not likea fury or conj. We can buff resists, as good as most others. If dirges could slow better than a shaman, crack the same as a chanter, haste as well as a zerker or inq, and toss out same proc buffs as furies or conjurors.. why would anyone play another class? Dirges are more or less eq2s jack of all trades, good at everything but master of nothing.
My words... You obviously know what you are talking about, your raid setup is pretty close to those used in my successful ones
If you wanted or not, you agreed with my point of view. We do not add to the MT group. We do not really add to a DPS grp (as most scouts dps during raids is low, i don't consider them DPS grp). Our place is of course at the side of other melee classes .. that's where our buffs work, but atm melee dps classes are far behind the mage ones, and therefore our adding is lower then it should be. You want some suggestion to make us more wanted? When coming to debuffs, i think we should have a bit of everything. Atm we can debuff Mental (through afflicted blade, just helps bards and maybe chanters to do damage .. just very few other classes use mental) and Physical Mitigation (through Claras, just helps scouts/tank dps). I would like to see us having the ability to debuff maybe magic/elemental resistances as well, so we could add to caster heavier grp that way. Our buffs are more or less mirrored by troubis. I think we should be more different. They should have the defensive ones. Boosting avoidance, mitigation and whatever .. if you want them to be also able to debuff .. thy should be decrease the offensive skills of an encounter (Slow, Manadrain, etc.). That way they could up the defense by either buffing the group to take more damage ... or lower the amount of damage a mob inflicts. We were meant to be offensive buffers. Raging our allies. Give us the Offensive ones. Disruption, Piercing/Slashing/Crushing, Dmg Procs) and of course the defense-debuffs mitigation/avoidance/resistance. For me, this would make us more unique, and if the things were balanced and working, worth having us in a group.
Isn't that what Discordant Boon, Lithe Disbelief etc do? But I agree 100% with you, that our debuffs should be more versatile, considering they ALL use up concentration... (Except for the melee addon ones) After all the dirge is presented as the debuff king by SOE. If our debuffs would just wear off after a few minutes, forcing us to put constant mana and time into them, but not using concentration for them, now THAT would make a difference.
Yes Discordant Boon adds to these skills .. but as far as my trouby friend told me Swan Song is doing exactly the same. I just wanted to make clear that WE are the ones buffing the offensive skills .. and Troubadurs the defensive ones. This are just "ideas" of what i would like, but these things would just work if other changes would be made too.
The question was "ARE WE THE BEST BUFFERS" and the answer is NO. Adding Resistances is nice, but a Warlock can buff poison/disease mitigation just as good as we do. Slowing a mob .. nice and cute .. Shammies are better in this, and even some XXXXing Hex dolls slow a mob like we do. Powerdraining .. nice and cute too .. chanters and troubas are better. Claras? A Templar can debuff physical mitigation just as high as we can, without having the need to use concetration for this. Brigants are able to lower the mitigation TWICE as much as we can. Haste? I have Rianas Master I and it adds about 30% .. nice one too .. but again enchanters can buff that one higher, and again without the use of wasting concentration on it. Not too shabby that it takes so many classes to replace us The kind of reasoning you give just doesn't fit. You listed off 5 classes to 'beat' what a dirge can do. If you can have one class in your group to do it all then you don't need those other five in your group to do it. Which is the point of jack-of-all-trades type classes -- to give you a variety of skillsets in a single group while fitting within the actual group limit. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see dirges get some loving. But your reasoning there just isn't sound. I like being a jack of all trades -- one reason I chose the class -- and to be a jack of all trades means you won't be the master of any. I think we do way too low of damage and I think our debuffs should be more effective in raid situations, but I'm quite happy to be able to do things that might not be as good as another class but it takes 5+ classes to be better at all of them. One thing I've noticed from parsing files, and I'm curious on if other dirge's have noticed this too, is that our % of misses seems much higher than other classes. As far as I know under the current system agility is used for to-hit, but when I look at the parsing stats our dps is low but our % of hit to miss is also 10% lower than other classes. And I can guarantee my agility is the highest in the groups I've been in. Heck, even the healing classes hit a larger percentage of the time.
Haven't parsed much, but I cannot say I miss that much. Only few mobs manage to block incoming attacks, but then again my AGI is pretty high with buffs.
I'm talking about the endgame/raids in special. In grouping and exping and everything up to the endgame i fully agree, we are a worthy class in there, having great utility and can react to special situation/grp setups with changing our buff/debuff scheme. No question therefore i like being a dirge. But i learned, that when it comes to raids, there are 24 slots .. and they will be filled with intention to be 100% effective against ONE special mob. It does not interest that we COULD do this/that if the mob would be of a different kind .. normally stratagies are focused on some special technics to bring the mob down, and you will always take the one doing the job the best .. and not the one that is just 2. best but can do something else, aslong as you have the choice. But again, im currently just very frustrated with my dirge, maybe the day will come, and i realize like you that we are SOOOOOOOO good and add SOOOOOO much to the endgame-events. I really hope i will see this in the near future, but for now, i'm just plainly sad
But again, im currently just very frustrated with my dirge, maybe the day will come, and i realize like you that we are SOOOOOOOO good and add SOOOOOO much to the endgame-events. I really hope i will see this in the near future, but for now, i'm just plainly sad I never said the dirge was "soooo" good or didnt' need help. Maybe the day will come when people won't become close-minded and defensive when someone disagree with part of what they are saying. I doubt that day will come though.
Don't take that "SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" to serious ^^ i often have a very "own" way to say things .. but after all you seem to be "happy" or at least kind of satisfied with Dirges role, and seeing us as a worthy member of a raid .. and i don't .. and i really hope that i will share your opinion one day. What is close-mindet then? Message Edited by DocEvil on 05-10-2005 08:21 AM
Wow...great comments. I checked in this morning and i have touched on a nerve here. After all the smoke clears, im seeing that the Dirge is very good 20-49. Once u hit "fity" u lose ur specialization and are therefore not asked to raid. I have a Zerker and Templar too as alts...as well as pally....and im sure that the temp and the zaerker will have a place so i dont have to worry about not being included in raids. I have always loved haveing Dirges on my xp teams becuase of the multitude of buffs that happen when playing those nice songs. So, im not seeing anything here that bothers me too much, cept fer the end game issue....but i have other alts and im in a very friendly guild who would make room anyway. Thanks to you all for ur imput and i will conitnue checking in til the posts cease. Peace! Pnaxx
