Heh, optimal group last night... Coercer + dirge + berzerker + Inq + fury + sk During Drayek encounter on the first wave of stuff dps was 205, on dogs dps was "286", on full and entire drayek dps was 196. I had the same buffs as everyone else in the group and out dps the sk on all portions, the zerker on all but the dogs. All i did was melee + tarvens + gutteral shriek. All the other skills are too low damage for casting time for it to make my dps more. As well, I'm pretty sure our buffs for a haste / dps group are on par and better than enchanters. Could be wrong, but chanter in group has 30ish % haste and +5% dps.. whereas I give 31% haste and +7% dps
off topic Just a question, and I don't mind harsh truth, was I one starred for something I said in here or is someone uninvolved in this thread/discussion trolling my posts and one starring?
probably trolling. My earth shattering discourses of wit, humor, and foresight are often one starred. Be nice if we could see who the raters were. However, at the end of the day, does it matter? I do not believe anyone here is really trying to win a popularity contest, nor do I believe anyone here cares much for the opinions of those who impart importance to the star count.
Well, I usually shy away from multiple page threads but I was bored and thought I'd chime in. I'm another dirge that agrees in certain situations, especially during long fights, dirges can hit super high dps. To the people that argue "Oh you're only hitting that DPS because you're in a super group, but all those people do your stuff better you're tagging along" blah blah, you're dumb. Sure a chanter can haste better, but the two of you together can haste even more. Same goes with fury/chanter proc buffs, and your own. Same goes with brigs AC debuff and your own. Sure a dozen classes can do 1 thing better, but if you group with those classes and stack it on it adds up. As for the above poster who said he only uses tarvens and gutteral in that 'optimum' dps group... Try throwing in jaels when it's conventient... My reasoning: Take the proc on the weapon in your main hand. add it to the one on your bow, then add the proc from graves. Then add the fury proc, chanter proc, and troubador proc (as an aside... troubs are good in that dps group so everyone can hit 400 str... haste cap + str cap + tons of procs = super dps). Anyway, since procs are calculated against weapon speed, and with jaels it get calculated twice (against a 7.0 weapon), it has a HUGE chance to proc. when you get lucky you're looking at a giant hit (1500-2k). It may not make a huge net increase in dps, but hey it costs no power (as long as you have enough to do it), and helps heal some of that ae damage Just my two cents. If you are simply unable to hit 175+ dps endgame during a long fight (specifically raids, short fights our dps suckish cause we have no real big hits), than that sucks for you cause I can. Even not in an optimal group just using my own CAs, Its not much of a thang to get up to 150 DPS in a 45 second fight
Yes, yes, I am very, very dumb. We have covered that. Now, the point of all this is, at its heart, our personal DPS is very low to balance the massive group buffs we provide. We are, in every sense of the phrase, a buffing class. Our role is support, to make the roles of healing, tanking, dps; better, easier, safer. The point of contention is that some of us feel that our buffs are too weak when compared to other classes, esspecially other classes which already have strong roles outside of support. The exapmles provided are very in detail, finally, in how people can claim personal dps twice that possible in a personal sense. They fall, as predicted, into a group situation where a large variety of buffs from several classes add up to large rewards. I commented on a perfect groups abilities, and have been countered by pointing out non optimal groups where a few members are not dream selected. I maintain that this only reinforces my point, that ANY member that has such buffs can achieve the same... include those ALSO able to perform other roles outside of buffing, usually at the same time. The point here is that non buffers are outbuffing the buffers. Thus, to disprove this, point out what the total value of said buff is, and how much of that value you provide as a dirge. I am very glad you happen to have the master of every spell in your lineup, but we will also be pointing out the adept 1 and adept 3 of them for similar results for the less fortunate. Additionally, it is not really fair to compare your masters to the app1s of others as a fair trade, is it? There are 6 group positions, and several buffs that can be cast out of group across the raid. If everyone has master value, use master. If everyone has adept 3, use adept 3. If most people still have adept 1 for some reason, use the adept 1 value of your spell. Compare. What is your individual contribution when compared to the whole? Yes, we have a large selection of buffs. Even stacking, how do you justify the low levels of those buffs when compared to other classes who already have strong non buffing roles? Do you honestly feel that when achieving these high personal DPS scores, that there is no other class in the game that could not exceed that by holding that position in that group?
I think the problem lies within peoples expectations of the bard class. In eq1 bards did no damage at all, but had great buffs that were huge in every situation. Sony, in EQ2, by all accounts has brought the two glasses closer together, for every class. The fact is, we actually do respectable dps. Far more than I expected when I rolled a bard actually. Sony made eq2 dirges more inline with the D&D bard... a real jack of all trades. Think of it, dirges are medium in every way. Every one of our CAs does medium damage, pretty much, all with debuffs attached. We have an avoidance and mitigation that is an average of all the classes. We have 1 of pretty much every type of ability in the game, but there's someone else that does it better. We're the equivelent of a red mage. (FF ref) If anyone's familiarf with a D&D bard, their songs add minor bonuses to all party members, but they're real strength is their versatility to be able to accomplish a variety of roles in one class. This is how I see the dirge. My point is this: No matter what group you're in, you can contribute. But beyond being a second best filler spot, How much you contribute depends on you. You really need deeply examine each member you're grouped with when you choose your buff scheme to be able to get the most out of all the members. And you also need to examine your skills and equipment and think hard about upgrades. You need to worry, situationally, about 4 of the 5 stats, and you need to know which attacks debuff what to be able to use them in the most efficent and optimal order. If you simply order your attacks correctly you can squeeze out ~15% more dps. A dirge is a subtle role, when you're playing your toon right no one's sure you're doing anything at all. We just make everyone else look a little bit better. If that's not how you want to play your toon I'm sorry dirge was ever meant to be the class for you.
You say we are the "Jack of all Trades" .. really sounds positive. I will give you my little explanation, of how i see us. I think of myself as the Janitor of EQ2 raiding. Hey, everybody will call for you, if something is wrong, but if they really need help, they'll pick up the yellow pages and call for a professional :/ P.S. Thanks for calling me dumb, personally insulting people which just don't share your opinion is really mature ...
Hey if there weren't janitors the world would be a pretty dirty place. We got a sayin in waste management, 'Its time to take out the trash'. Being a dirge everything you could ever want to accomplish is just a little bit easier, If you don't like your role choose another.
That's the point. Where did it say "Dirges are the Jack of all trades (Janitor's) You will be able to do different things, but you will get owned at every single one". No Discussion .. this is what we are . but WHERE is the hint that this is the way we were MEANT? Everywhere i look, i see us as the Offensive Buffers und Debuffers no. 1. No other class was meant to be that way, so i was surprised seeing other classes doing "my job" better then i could. But hey, depends on the point of view. Maybe i was just misinformed, but aslong as i don't see any information that dirges have to be like they are atm, i still see hope to get "fixed"
bards are actually known as jack of all trades, at least in the games i have been so far, not telling that they hadn't got some smaller specialisation, just in general btw concerning the dps dpct discusion above, i just can't stop me from writing this we got dps = damage per second and dpct = damage per cast time, to be more exact you would have to write sdpct (=style damage per cast time) my point: cast time ist measured in seconds, style damage in damage, what we get is damage per seconds, which is just a unit, the actual expression for your kind of dps would then be lsomething like tdpfptspf (= total damage per fight per total seconds per fight)... also the calculations which were made to describe how the calculated dps differs when you calculate it with dpct or whole damage over whole time doesn't make sens like this. Fact is, that when you even would have some "true" dps there (meaning the dps done in full length of the styles effect duration+casting time) you couldn't just add it up like you did it with the dpct values, actually you could, bet what you would get is not the actual dps... but everyone now knows what was ment, so forget this anyway...
We left beeing a real bard behind with deciding to become Dirge. Obviously Troubadurs are more specialised to fullfill their primary roles as best defensive buffers around (mostly through buff-stacking, giving huge amounts of str,sta and agi + more def then we can do) AND still being able to do almost everything we can do. As there are two bard-classes i believe that both of them were meant to be specialists in one or another way. That's why you had to decide between Dirge and Troubadur, and not stayed a normal bard throughout the game.
Troubadors have one role, which is buff the MT. That's it, that's all. I have never been out dpsed by a troubador, unless someone comes to the door, and the mob moves a little and I"m not hitting it. Troubs used to be uber, then alas the "200 skill patch" came into effect and all their buffs stopped being so effective. The patch that made 200 skill the "cap" so to speak wasn't really a melee nerf it was a troubador nerf. Nothing I've seen in patches which have come after it, has a class been hit so hard. Troubs are good, but when it comes to raw defense, they can only buff "4" more than us.. which is big, but.. not raid crippling if they dont show up. Troubs also get a group hp regen buff, which eats up two conc slots and does what, 35/ tick? haven't seen em use this very often... So that brings me to the question, what is it that troubs get that is so uber, which dirges dont?
I never said troubas are uber or something, they sure as hell have their issues and their problems. But at least, they have their special role to fullfill .. and even if there are more then 1 of them, the second can still haste + statbuff + procbuff in a melee grp (thats the setup someone claimed for us, or he used while raiding). But again, i'm tired of arguing about that .. i have my point of view, and this will stay as it is until i make my own different experience. For me this thread ends here ^^
Exactly the point I try to make whenever I "try" to debate this with other players. A Troub can get 4 more defense then us, but they left high and dry on the concentraion issue to do much else. A Troub can get more Str, Sta, Agi, ect then us, but also with a well geared MT or well rounded MT party with the trillion buffs people have, your not going to see extremely drastic results. Just cause you "can" do so many things doesnt mean you actually will be able to, given the Concentraion issues. We know this all too well, its just alot of other classes dont exactly run into Concentraion issues like we do and have a hard time understanding this. Im glad I took Dirge, I feel we have alot more versatillity to add to our parties/raids and its actually fun to switch things up and play different roles.
and again, i'm replying .. even if i was sure that i could just leave it alone, but as you are talking to me directly, you will get your answer. I don't have as much experience as nalini or orgin, thats correct, but i have made my own experience and that's what i'm talking about. Other more experienced dirges, don't share Orgin/Nalinis opinions either .. take a look around, there are other experienced dirges around here, who obviously have a different opinion .. you should really understand that knowing things is not 100% in this game, it not only depends on how long you do stuff, but what the experience is that you made. I give examples and statements from MY point of view. Maybe you should go out and make your own too. If you have seen the same things nalini and orgin are mentioning, that is fine for you, but i will still give comments basing on what I have learned so far. the funny thing about opinions is, that they may change, when the experience changes. Maybe i will see the "light" these both are talking about .. and maybe i'm going to get bitterer evertime i compare what i can add, and what others do. Noone knows Sorry guy .. a comment like "they say it, they have to know it" is lame .. just because they have their opinion based on their personal experience doesn't force me to share it, does it?
Your right Doc, we are all going to be in somewhat different situations. Players being geared up/upgraded up different making some results vary, but maybe more importantly players are going to have different guild set-ups and such that really make you see things from different angles. When I say geared up/upgraded up I dont just mean the Dirge, I mean the whole party/raid, and probably most especially the MT there. A viewpoint from a Dirge that is in a guild that is heavy on both sets of Bards may have a ton of more experience tinkering around with DPS parties and there outcomes whereas another Dirge in a guild thats light on Bards may have a little more experience handling the MT party roles. We can somewhat see things alike in alot of ways, but theres so many variables to put in place that it can be hard to really expect exact results from one Dirge to another.
