I'm posting here because I see that at times devs respond to other classes on these boards. Off the top of my head we have 5 completely useless spells(netherlord, broodlings, both curses, and pillaging). These arent useless just because they do low damage like dissolve(which is why i didnt add it but it sucks very bad also), but because they are just truely useless. I was wondering if there is any light at the end of the tunnel for these spells. Is there a dev that actually knows something about warlocks looking at our class for possible fixes? I see alot of thought and changes put in to most other classes, even classes that were already very strong to begin with like the assassin and wizard. I know we as a class are not usually the most vocal complainers but I dont think that is a reason to keep us on the backburner and forget about us. Having 5-7 of our spells never being cast seems like quite a bit to me. I'm not a scholar of other classes and I know it's possible they have several useless spells as well, but I hear talk about working on those classes all the time. We never hear a word about warlocks being worked on at all. So is there anything in the future coming for us or do we get to sit here while every other class gets a small boost here and there until we are way behind the curve.
I second that. I've been morbidly fascinated by how awful Curse of Luclin (or whatever it's called now) is for a long time. It used to be purely for farming those nether gem thingies... and now it's purely for sucking. The thing that also kills me? The wizard version of netherlord does its thing, then explodes with AE damage when it dies. Does that sound a little wrong to anyone else? Having said that... pillaging is actually useful. I use it all the time in groups with no bards or enchanters. You get the expert or master version, and it even returns more power to you than it takes up. And the broodlings can throw up some pretty decent damage in the right zones (less so in raids). As for the other curse; you can argue how much it actually does, but I have read others that claim that you can significantly cripple a mob if you enhance it through the warlock aa line and combine it with another class debuff like the conjuror's.
Pillaging is an excellent spell. It serves it's purpose. Both curses need to go Bye-Bye, though, to that I'll agree. Ara
Korrupt@Najena wrote: /sigh... There are no useless spells... they all have a purpose and time for use. As far as Dissolve, mine hits for a 5k average and is insta refresh, very quick casting also. NEway just wanted to say, just because you are a warlock doesnt mean you should have only damage spells. Warlock is a mixture of wizard and necro. Also Propagtion line is utility spells, for all yas out there that think warlock is only good for dps. Pay some EQ for a bit. You will understand that classes have many.. many possible strengths.. Its all about what you want to play. Not what the 8 million other warlocks are doing. Dare i say it... sheep!!
Pahblo@Nektulos wrote: While I do agree with your statement somewhat, there are a few spells which truly are useless. Curse of whatever: Removing the Max Hp of a mob by 6,000 on an epic is comepletely irrelevant as we can use our weakest nuke spell and remove that amount of health instantly and permanently. Netherlord: The netherbeast does incredibly low DPS and has so few HP that I honestly can't imagine casting it for any reason other than i like the look now and then. Dissolve: Dissolve is a point of contention ason the surface it looks like a decent enough spell but in practice it lowers your dps using it. I have removed it completely from my rotation and only use it occasionally when soloing where i have a solo mob at less than 5% and don't feel like using a real nuke to kill it. infestation: Broodlings are ok in some limited situations and frankly where I rarely use this spell I can't say it's completely useless. Other curse/debuff: The str/int debuff curse doesnt wow me but it has its purpose in the grand schemeand many other classes have stat debuffs. Among stat debuffs ours is actually one of the best so where I may not use this regularly I can appreciate it has a valid if not desired place in the spell book. Pillaging: I use it when the group has power issues. It gives power. If you don't have power issues don't use it but be glad it's there for when you do. So honestly the spells I think need a look taken at them are Curse of Luclin? (cant remember name as its not on my hotbars anymore.), Netherlord, Dissolve. All 3 spells lower your overall effectiveness if you use them.
And it's people that push buttons just because they are there with no understanding of what they do that actually think these spells are useful. Try playing EQ a little and you'll realize these spells have no significant importance at all. Yes they are useful if you just want another button to push because it's there, but they have no real effect. Perhaps the int/str debuff curse could be called marginally useful. The 2 pet spells dont live on raid content, and heroic content dies too fast for them to matter. So they are useless in both aspects of the game. Pillaging is completely useless as a means to generate power, but I believe that is due to the nature of most power generating spells in general. The hp debuff curse is completely useless, as there is not a single instance where you actually want to cast that spell, if you do, you are not mentally capable of having a serious opinion on your class. I started this post because I figured it was time that a serious warlock started using these boards to maybe get the attention of the dev team. Most of us simply disregard these forums and do most of our communication on EQ2Flames. But SOE does not use those boards for player feedback and instead rely on these boards, which are rarely visited by the most knowledgeable of the playerbase. Perhaps even this might open a door for the leading warlocks to start communicating directly with soe here, as I see some of the top wizards doing in their threads. I hope the warlocks that really know what they are talking about start to give their opinions here, the warlocks that have seen all the content and know what each spell really does and the mechanics behind them, not just the ones that see a button and figure it's good if they push it.
Dissolve is a spell that I wanted to add to my list because I too have not cast this spell since EoF. I instead decided to focus on spells that while they arent technically broken their usefulness is, be it from not generating noticeable power, or dumbfire deaths, or curses that do nothing. Dissolve is a bad spell, but it would have some effect if someone for whatever reason decided to cast it.
Korrupt@Najena wrote: I agree with you in a raiding context but there are 2 other aspects to adventuring so I am pointing out there may be some use for some of those abilities. Not everything is raid content. We can't ask for fixes to spells purely based on raiding. it's important to look at the game as a whole if you want the dev team to take you seriously. Otherwise we are just being elitist.
Personally, Id leave dissolve off the table as it is a mage achetype spell and shared by all mages. It is a completely ineffiencent spell for dps for warlocks, however every other mage class (i believe) benefits from it and we can just chose not to touch our version of it. As for Pillaging, this spell definitely needs to be revisited and reworked. Casting a spell that costs nearly 300 power to give group members 33 power every 2.3 seconds is not only inefficent, but not worthwhile either. We are playing a game where 33 power is not even a drop in the bucket and is not even enough to help group members cast 1 additional spell. The only spell wizards have that i can think of that would be considered an equivalent is their spell that stuns the caster to regenerate power for themselves. Although this is also quite limited in its usability, it is at least somewhat helpful to regenerate power between pulls and the power ticks are much quicker (increases power by 43 intantly and every second). Both our debuffs (curse of void and curse of darkness) were orginally only useful for farming nil crystals. Now that nil crystals are no longer in game (thank you!), we no longer have any use for either of these debuffs. The STR/INT debuff has limited usefulness, as someone stated, however, it is never used and has a limited impact on the mob. The max power/health debuff only really has an effect on incoming, and even then, the usefulness is simply not there, as someone stated before, we have multiple dmg spells that are far more effiecent at accomplishing the same result. It was argued earlier in this thread that just because we are warlocks, does not mean that every spell we have must have a damage componant to it, and i dont think anyone is arguing that they should. We are simply requesting that any debuffs or utility spells we are given actually effectively contribute to the group or raid we are in. Dumbfire pets like netherlord and protofire (or whatever it is called) have needed help for a long time now, and are completely ineffiecent spells to cast for any dps. Even when our mythical offered double netherlords, it was still not worth the cast time. With rays of disintegration being reworked and turned into another 30k DD spell, i think acid storm should also be looked at to make sure that it maintains class balance as both were considered class defining level 80 spells. Hina, lvl 80 warlock
Melina@Splitpaw wrote: To be honest though having experimented with all my spells while leveling to 80, those curse spells really serve little purpose even in group or solo play. The broodlings are good as long as they dont instant die to solo/group/raid mob aoes, and the netherlord is just plain terrible....the wizard version at least explodes and does damage when it dies and deals spell based damage as its attack. Even our acid storm pet which is supposed to be aoe immune dies to aoes nowdays. Our rift spell should probably be looked at a bit as its minimum/ high end is rather bad and there are almost never enough enemies for it to get its full effect especially when its cast time is taken into account. The Wizard's fission line is at least worth casting on a single target enemy. And our dissolve line is utterly worthless, it would be nice having it converted to a useable blue aoe somewhere between radiation and absolution in damage/reuse. It would also be nice if our aura line of spells had its range increased by 10. The dark pyre line's casting time also makes it somewhat detrimental to use unless there is literally nothing else to cast at the time. Also, we dont even get an evac like our wizard counterparts! Our pillaging and other power return spells should also be looked at. As it is now they cast rather slow and return little power especially when compared to player power pools and the massive % based drains in raid encounters. Our casting times overall are very bad as well, possibly even worse than wizards if that is even possible. Our reliance on dots also does not help on enemies who nowdays are constantly stripping debuffs from themselves, and who have massive resist rates unless properly debuffed even with 500+ disruption. Although I agree the devs should not single out any one type of content, I would much rather they take the word of someone who has experienced all types of content over someone who has exclusively played one and only one. There is no real reason for a spell to be worthless at one level of play and useful at another.
Morghus wrote: I honestly can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. I am not sure if you are assuming I exclusively know one aspect of the game and for that matter what aspect that is. As for the highlited section of text I have to disgree. A good example is our roots. Useless in Raids but vital for soloing and situationally useful in groups. I would not expect to be able to root a raid mob nor would I like them to remove that ability from our solo arsenal.
I'm not taking a stance on 1 level of content which is why I left off some other spells that are useless in raiding but could be viable for heroic content. The 2 curses are absolutely worthless on heroics, and only 1 of them has any(barely any) use in raid content. The dumbfires also have little to no use in either type of play, they die immediately in raid content(and some heroic content now that has ae's) and in heroic content the encounters dont last long enough for the dumfires to have any value. The curses are class specific problems, they are our spells and are ignored by everyone who knows anything about the game. The dubfires and pillaging are useless due to game mechanics and the problem is spread out among all classes. dumbfires just dont do enough short term damage for heroic content and dont have the ability to survive raid content, this is true for all dumbfires not just ours. Pillaging along with almost every other power generating spell does way too little, way too slowly to be useful in any content. Again this is a general problem among the vast majority of power regen spells of most classes. My suggestions would be to make all dumbfires ae immune, for every class. And for power regen I think these types of spells should grant much more power, even if at the cost of a longer reuse, but they should generate enough power to make them worth casting, not just enough to cast 1 more spell. The curses are a total loss and should be discontinued entirely or changed fundamentally to be useful. I also agree that the rift line could use a boost, it's just not right that the class designed to be ae does not have the best ae spell. We see wizards and assassins getting fixed(or boosted if you prefer the term), and this is probably because devs play those classes. As far as I'm aware no dev plays a warlock so they really can have no real input as to what our class could use. I'm not dissin the assassins and wizards, I'm glad they get their lovin, but warlocks and for that matter rangers also need the same amount of attention. I'm hoping that amidst all the fixes to summoners and utility classes, the upcoming tank revamp, and the continual improvement of the wizards and assassins, that we warlocks are not forgotten about.
Melina@Splitpaw wrote: what I said was simply a statement as to what areas of knowledge should be taken into account as somebody who only plays in one aspect of the game may make an erroneous conclusion to a spell's worth making it worse when used in other play styles. I agree, the roots at least are semi-useful when they dont break or are resisted but the curse line is worthless at all levels of play from what I have seen. It would not surprise me in the least if NPCs had 0 strength/relevant attribute and simply are given an arbitrary damage value regardless of the stats...that could very well explain the weakness of heroic/solo NPC mages in contrast to raid enemies with massive damage aoes due to set values.
Korrupt@Najena wrote: Well first off... I said they all serve a purpose. Its not like i always cast them. But debuffing is everyones job. If ya got it cast it. Like i said I play my warlock the way i want... sometimes i concentrate on just dps.. sometimes i throw debuffs in... All depends on who/what im grouping with... what spec i have set up As far as a reply to your sad attempt to be a *serious warlock*... Consider this.. That kind of attitude is why you see none of the changes you would like. Maybe try to be more constructive when you want to critisize someone for being a individual. >>>EQ2flames<<< is a unsecure sight. Might wanna read the admins post about those kind of sites... Might save you another embarassing post. But to get back on the subject of the curses and these so called useless spells. Decreasing mobs stats makes mobs die alot quicker. No matter who cast them on the mob. I played EQ since 2000. Yes eq and eq2 are to seperate, but amazing games. Anyone who was hardcore everquester like i was knows why spells are there and when to use them. I mean my cmon.. who died and made you a the design team. There in the game. So maybe ya should think about "utilizing" them.. Or maybe ask for them to be improved, Like a dot to go with the curses...? Maybe even combine all 3 into 1 very affective spell Lastly, this isnt eq2flames.com. If you read and post here oftenly, we arent here to flame each other. We are here to come up with new and exciting ways to improve our classes. A good attitude and a constructive thought go a long way.
I'm not attempting to flame someone, I'm stating that if you seriously think these spells are worthwhile then you really are not experienced enough at the class in all aspects of the game to have serious input. I have played this class through all content, solo, heroic, and every raid the game has to offer. I feel, and I think many would agree, that I am extremely qualified to offer suggestions and feedback on this class. I am not a blind sheep that will just say, hey the spell exists so it must be useful. I instead see oversights to our class, and would like these addressed. If you simply blindly push buttons and think the devs know everything about our class and that everything is a-ok then you are wrong. There are no devs that play warlock, so the only feedback they can get about actual gameplay is from the playerbase. This feedback should come from people that not only have seen and handled the class through all or most of the content, but also understand the mechanics involved underneath the picture on the screen, and how everything works. Now I may not know everything, but I know quite a bit, and the vast majority of us that have extensive experience in all areas of the game know these spells to be in severe need of work. If you do not agree they need work that is fine. If you take that to the next step and tell sony not to worry about our class at all then thats exactly what you'll get, and the warlock will face the same problems facing summoners now. I do not understand why someone would tell the devs not to make our class better and fix broken spells/mechanics. It was people saying nil crystals were a good thing( nobody will ever know why) that made that long overdue fix take so long. And lastly, if we are really "here to come up with new and exciting ways to improve our class" then why are you going out of your way to stop exactly such a thing from happening?
Korrupt@Najena wrote: Ok... Im ignoring you outlandish claims that I lack experience. Back to the source subject. If you think these "useless"spells arent effective, how bout a more positive suggestion like making Curse's have a direct damage element as well. Kind of like the O so popular rogues. Your "i know more then you attitude" is just a waste of a post. I am not the only player with a more open mind for change. "Yes We Can!" sound familiar? I am very willing to take a lil criticism about some flaws in warlocks debuffs. Everquest 2 wasn't made for you to stress over a number that has really no bearing on your skill as a player. It's a game man. I dont want to bicker about why/who/what. Im here to have fun. I think we all can relate to the on going parse top warz. p As far as your claims that developers dont do there job... *Scratch head* Brenlo the producer. The dev team are developers. Gm's do there role. CSR theirs. My point... they all have jobs and do there best to please us as a community. Not just the hot headed hardcore players. I dont see any Devs GM's CRS responding to you if you just gonna bash there game and its mechanics.
I did not say they dont do their job. I didnt even say fix this now. I only asked if there was anyone looking in to these useless abilities we have. I also said there is NO DEV THAT PLAYS A WARLOCK, and this is true. There are devs playing many other classes, not ours. So again, the ONLY way they are going to get educated feedback on the warlock class is for us to post what is broken or overlooked for our class. The devs do make mistakes and oversights, if they didnt you would never see a hotfix to anything. I also am not focusing on our parse. The 2 curses and pillaging are utility spells that I think should be worked on. There are many that say make all my spells stronger so I do more damage. I did not. I said hey look, we have several spells that in all practical application have no use, and was wondering if there was any dev taking the time to look at our class for possible fixes or enhancements. This isn't bashing mechanics, or calling anyone lazy. I was doing what it appears too few warlocks ever do, and thats pointing out problem areas with the class so we arent forgotten. There is a reason assassins and wizards always have small tweaks and sometimes major ones. They have devs playing the classes AND they have class communities that speak out and let the devs know whats going on.
Precisely, if people do not speak up or make /feedback or bug reports things wont change...and even then there is a high chance they will be overlooked. Just look at the warden issues, they had an issue there that was around 3 years old and was fixed just recently and has not even gone live yet. They clearly do not know what each class really needs aside from the ones they play.
Morghus wrote: Is it possible to veiw others /feedback, /petitions, /bug reports? Be nice to see some of other peoples. As far as most changes happening recently, instead of them happening asap when you wanted it to... There are many factors to think about when changing the structure of a game as player controled as EQ. IMO part of that problem began with everquest communities refusing to go to the source of the game. Communication between SoE and player base was more of a "why bother" subject. Players spread the dont bother talking to SoEattitude and alot bought in. Now at that time I wasnt as into the game as i starteed to get when EQ2 launched. IMO EQ2 was soe of saying we are here to please. Everquest was a very important part of the growth of the company. I am very pleased with all the guides enlisting, live events, free mini pak expansion. (GU52) MMO comunities grow just like a real city do. They start slow, of course. But in the end It comes down to what you are willing to do to make things happen. I do admit i was never much for fprum disscussions. I actually would love to see SoE in game CSR. Live players devoted 24/7 to helping you when ya need it. *raise hand* Sounds like an awesome job to me.. That if ya have the people skills lol
