[p]People may have a point when they say Pals being very good in PvP is holding back improvements for Pals in PvE.[/p][p]Raiding isnt everything and if we were considered one of the "must haves" for group instances that would still be good enough for me. However a tank of any kind isnt needed for most group instances in T7. Basically most Scouts and I have even seen some Mages can tank T7 group instances. So our role in raids and groups is much diminished.[/p][p]If you cant get on high end raids you wont get high end gear and your Pally will never be comparable to other Tank Classes at that level, those that have top gear for some reason may be in a position to be equal to a Guard in EH, I have never seen it done with a Pally MT so I wouldnt know.[/p][p]I Play in a high end raiding Guild, we spend a lot of time in EH etc, my Swashy has seen all the top mobs but my Paladin will never see Wuoshi. Its very hard to get my Pally in on less critical raids so he can gear up so he can prove his capabilities in raids and be a more required class in group content. I am told that tanks arent needed to do group instance content anymore so whats the point in gearing them up for it.[/p][p]The concept of giving a class such as Paladins long casting spells such as heals and wards etc when they are being hit as a group MT etc by many mobs is badly flawed. All your spells need to be fast cast or reactives when you are the one supposed to be hit by a crowd of mobs.[/p][p]Yes we can do many things well but other classes can do them better, if we can MT high end raids better than Guards I think the Guards would be screaming, wouldnt they?[/p][p]There are many family guilds whose raids are poorly balanced and find Pally's very handy to fill niches because of this, so there may be a role there. You will always be doing the last expansions raid content though.[/p][p]Perhaps that is our PvE main role now, MT/OT, filler ins for DPS/healers, for family Guild raids?[/p]
once again you have no point in this arguement i believe i have more avatar loot than other plate tank in game atm, and what was this about paladins not getting high end loot.....GFG...............as far as wuoshi goes i can tank wuoshi and do it almost on a weekely basis, once again GFG.....................have some valid points next time
[p]What does "GFG" mean?[/p][p]Of course since you go on high end raids you have high end loot, I am sure everything you say that applies to you is true. Your circumstances may be different also and you may have had chances that arent available to most.[/p][p]Basically no one is saying that Paladins cant do many things, just that other classes can do them better or with less effort in a raid context. [/p][p]Look at T7 Raiding Guilds that are advertising for members, are any asking for Paladins? Any at all, on any PvE server? If there are, what is the percentage?[/p][p]For the vast majority of raiding guilds Guards and Zerks are the choices for raids, Paladins are at best a filler if there are gaps in the raid makeup. Group instances can be tanked by non tanks so there isnt a tank role there either for any tanks, not just Pallies.[/p][p]We could say this is because 'most Pallies cant play well and that good tank players concentrate in the Guard/Zerk classes' or we could look for Class or game issues that lead to this. Of course ambitious and good tank players may never do Crusaders because of the stigma and the low chance of being able to work their way up in a Raiding Guild which may add to the problem.[/p][p]Group instances could be changed so that only plate classes can tank the named there (except for amazingly well equipped scouts perhaps), that would restore tank roles there. Paladin CA, Spells etc can be improved to help win raid places, fast cast HoT's, group heals and cures would help along with a short timer self DPS enhancement. Anything with Mana regen would be great, especially if it was group based.[/p][p] [/p]
top end guilds dont need crusaders because those of us there have been tehre for quite some time and arent going anywhere, if one of us quit a top end slot would be opened, once again we have desireability if you play your class well, but top end want the cream of the crop, not random joes'
[p]ok im not a "end game raiding paladin" i haven't seen much of EoF raiding at all (only been to FTH once)[/p][p]personally i think our class could use SOME loving...[/p][p] lower cast speed and / or reduce power cost on our heals[/p][p]change our "bigheal" to a "bigward" (this would benefit both soloers and give us a spike damage absorb for nasty pulls)[/p][p]remove divine favor - why does this spell even exist? I have it on because the icon is pretty.[/p][p] [/p][p]however, these things arent needed for our class, those who says paladin dps sucks bigtime and dosnt exist, that we can't tank **** because we're not a real tank, go group with a paladin who can play their class please.[/p][p] [/p][p]I've lost count on how many people (mainly guards) who have told me to reroll a guard since i would be MUCH better as that class. I truly, and never will, play a guardian or any other tank class in EQ II then paladins, we arent broken, we could use some kind of little love (hell SK's could use just as much!)[/p][p] [/p][p]paladins can pound out 1,5k zonewide with the same groupsetup as those nice little guards that is oh so godly.[/p][p]paladins can tank anything a guardian can, just needs another setup for the raid.[/p][p] [/p][p]and lastly, the reason as to why paladins "sucks" is because we're almost never given a chance to prove ourselves (there are exeptions i know, some raiding guilds actually let their paladins tank / raid on a steady basis, but fact is, most dont, and wont, until we get lots of loving)[/p][p]the paladin class isn't "fine" as some says, but it sure as hell isnt all that crappy as most says, we can survive, we can hold aggro, we can do dps, we can heal, yes we arent the best, or not even close to the true healers / dps'ers, im sure in time (2-5years) we will be a good tank! (like paladins in EQ I i'e heard of, never played it so can only dream of what i've heard)[/p][p] [/p][p]thats just the 2cp of a paladin from AB who's tanked every KoS zone (reason as to why i stopped raiding is, none wants a paladin and i got bored on being on standby 8 / 10 times) someday i might get into raiding with him again, but not seriously raiding as i would as if i was admitted raid class.[/p]
[p]I see, so 'you're here because you're, here because you're here'? It seems there are limited opportunities for Paladins to become "the cream of the crop, not random joes" and work their way up to your position.[/p][p]When you leave what class will they be likely to replace you with? Are you your Guilds MT btw, or do you "tank Wuoshi" only when the MT goes down?[/p][p]When my family raiding Guild folded due to VG release and I moved to a high end raiding Guild, they wanted my Swashy who was poorly equipped compared to my Pally with less AA and HQ's etc, I was very definitely told they didnt want a Pally and had bad experiences with Pally's before that had wanted to MT in raids (they kept asking to MT and became "pests" ) . No high end EoF T7 Raiding Guild on my server asks for Pally's when recruiting, none. QED.[/p][p]This may be due to predjudice and existing MT classes reinforcing it through comments on 'crusader *****' etc or actual poor class balance or both.[/p][p]Once again I say plate classes dont even have a group tank role nowadays so something must be wrong. [/p]
Welp, ive tanked labs with no problem, and id be tanking more raids if my schedule allowed. heck when i tanked labs we had 2 zerkers and a gurd in the raid. anyway, im only in EoF Legendary set gear (all 7 peices, though now the gloves from PvP gear). Im lagging behind our guild MT guard cause he gets to be there everyday of every wekk, and i get to show up once on the weekends. Im still tryin to get my block AA cause im at 85 points, im not giving up my smite cause i AM a pvpr, so ill wait. but in regards to some of the things posted. A) we have divine Aura, and that absorbs 30 freakin hits, when im buffed to 12k HP getting hit for 6k is rare. and with a full fabled set up id hit 13-14 k. B) if youre not using a ward, you suck, plain and simple, if you are getting interrupted, you suck, cause you are not bashin/kicking before hand. youre fault nobody elses C) for the record our bash and kick DO work against epics regardless what it says, ive tested it. D)its nice in a tough situation when the healers screw up( like you get hit big and 2-3 of them all hit thier big heal, only to not have it on the next hit) to have LoH and divine aura. E) Mithanial marr miracles also help in a pinch as well. another divine aura that CANT get through no matter how much ya take. basically you need to be TANK specced and have the right gear and youll do fine tanking raids, you just have to know what youre doin and make sure the other people you depend on( the guy with your amends) knows what HE is doing. Finally by knowing your class you may have to take a different approach to a paticular encounter to maximize youre abilities, one that other may simply not understand. granted we are gimped in more then a few ways, but there are ways to overcome them till Sony fixes it.
[p]im gettin frigin tired of pallies b*tching and moaning about rebalances just because SK's r finaly a playable class and hold their own better in raids. do u have any idea how long SK's had to deal with bullcrap about pallies being superior?! all of a sudden now that SK's rnt broken pallies want to b buffed so they can maintain their bragging rights....sorry, no dice. and yes this thread wasnt directed specificly towards sk's being more useful (though it ran through all your minds), it is still grouped into the general idea of pallies needing buffs spawned by sk's taking a larger role then them in raids. [/p][p] [/p][p]i will NOT be looking at this thread again so there is no point in replying with a flame. [/p]
This whole post has just gotten stupid. The most vocal people are also the worst players. Stop filling the forum with pointless crap. LEARN YOUR CLASS OR RE-ROLL.
[p]I am afraid Kaz was a troll since none of this was aimed at SK's. [/p][p]Zozo can you point to a single PvE EOF high end raiding Guild that is advertising for a Pally now, or in the last few months? If no one is advertising for a Pally is it because every single one of us is "crap" or has already re-rolled ie all the good players have re-rolled?[/p][p]Maybe mine is a very rare case but I have consistently been told that plate tanks arent required for group instances and Pally's roles can be filled better by other classes. That only leaves tanking for Family Guild raids where they have poor class balance.[/p][p]I can understand that in PvP Pally's have a much higher standing and that means they have more respect and can work their way up to MT more easilly, especially if they have a legacy position in their Guild.[/p]
Fighters are generally underused in raids. 3-4 are adequate for EoF raids, and that includes mobs like Gardener, Rumbler, Mayong where you actually need 2 or 3 tanks to deal with the encounters. Most EoF and almost all KoS mobs need just one tank. This gets people looking for a way to downsize the amount of fighters in a raid from the start. Paladins have a unique role and can be very useful, and they can MT. But a paladin can't do anything that is not done better by another class. This has forced paladins out of the raiding environment. There is a bit of a stigma too, because you have to play a paladin to the hilt to be of any use at all. Alot of classes can succeed lazily, this isn't one of them. Whatever your opinion is on rebalancing for paladins, I think most would agree it is one of the most bailed on/ rerolled/ left out classes in EQ2 raiding.
[p]Well put Cae [/p][p]Your point on some 'lazy' classes is well made also, Pally's can never "ninja afk" while tanking.[/p]
am i CL's mt no, how ever i do still tank and not just when our mt goes down....but anyways im done with this thread theres no point posting here anymore nothing every gets resolved oh and by the way Dissolution last i heard was looking for a new crusader, so there ya go, a highend slot opened up.....now quit complaining
My old PvE guild used a Paladin as Raid MT. If paladin had amends on my swashie and i had transfer on him (only works in the correct order)....I could hit an add or Named and it would agro the paladin......Thats kind of nice for raiding?
[p]I don't know how many different ways I have to tell you this V...[/p][p]YES, Paladins CAN do most anything, but there is always someone who can do it BETTER. We are great for gap control, but to be honest, how often do you really need gap control in a raid?[/p][p]I am the 6th paladin in my raid alliance... One I've never seen, One is now playing a fury (mostly), one is on a dirge more than the pally, one just left the game for IRL reasons and the last also has a fury, and I'm now working up a brigand. Why? Because we aren't wanted as paladins. I'm constantly pestered to betray to SK (which I won't do, I have too much money tied up into Jal at this time).[/p][p]But IMO, this only extends to raiding. For group instances, I think the Pally is the best tank hands down, especially if you do not have the perfect group setup (my guild is abnormally light on DPS toons).[/p][p]But I will grant one thing, alot of it IS perception of us. We need very specific groups/gear to be successful in a raid, the problem is, it is very difficult to get that gear if you aren't invited along on the raids and the group doesn't fit the 'accepted' stategy in most cases. Alot of groups don't go into a zone to figure out NEW ways to beat it, they go in to get the gear to move on in the progression and Pally's do not fit into that concept (unless you were there in the first place, therefore become part of the accepted)[/p]
[p]Well put Jal [/p][p]I agree that Pals make excellant group tanks. I think there is a more general issue for tanks also. There is a massive class balance problem atm because scouts and even mages can tank Unrest and other group instance zones (except Niz) which means unless you have a weak group, tanks of any kind arent needed for groups. [/p][p]So where is the tank role outside raids? And since so very few tanks are required for raids that makes a lot of redundancy.[/p]
[p]that is part of the problem to be honest... You only need so many tanks on a raid. 3-4 is really all you need (except for some unusual cases). Anything more than that and you are beginning to hurt the raid.[/p][p]Now, in a perfect world, the Pally would take one of those slots, but in practice, they don't. [/p][p]I'm pretty lucky most of the time with the group I raid with, I fill a spot that would otherwise be unfilled (I am most often in the mage group protecting the warlock ). It is a role I accept, because I feel useful. It doesn't matter if I die, if it allows the warlock to continue DPSing when they would of otherwise been dead, then I've done my job. If it allows the warlock (or whoever I have amended) to go a little more all out, then all the better for that too.[/p][p]I've done the same thing in the scout group and I've been in the melee group. When there is room, I can add more than not being there, but when there is a choice between a mage and me, the mage does (and should) have the spot. Same thing for a scout/melee group, if someone who fits that role better is availalbe, they should have the slot, not me because at that point, my presense hurts the raid.[/p][p]What we are is someone who fits when noone else is available, we are adaptive to fill any role. Short one healer, the pally can pinch-hit, short one DPS, the pally can pinch-hit... We are the pinch-hitters of the raiding world.[/p][p]Now, I'll continue to raid with Jal when ever I can, there are times a paladin is useful beyond the pinch hitting (even the pinch hitter gets a start every now and then ), but I do not expect it to be often once Kalayah is leveled.[/p]
I don't really know the raids, but isn't the Pally the best tank assist? (helping evade, mitigation, shielding, and warding, healing some, etc)
[p]Our guild has 3 active raiding pallys and the raid officers hate it. They are always asking the pallies to roll other characters because they use guard/zerk as tank/offtank and the pally dps is not enough. The healing is not good enough either.[/p][p]They will probably have to do like wow and make the pally a viewable healer..[/p]
[p] No. That would be Dirge, Defiler/Mystic, and all other healers for healing. (Classes already in your raid)[/p][p] [/p][p]On the subject of number of tanks. 3 to 4 is pushing it. I would say it would range more along the lines of 1-3. With 3 used only when you need drag.[/p][p] [/p]
