[p]I am in a raiding guild, I play Pal and Swash, there is no interest in having the Pally raid. There is no role for them as they use Bards to reduce agro and buff the group in other ways and have enuff healers not to need a Pally at all. My Swash is always chosen ahead of my Pally and I have been told I may as well reroll the Pally.[/p][p]There is a serious class balance issue to be addressed at level 70 because Pally's arent needed to tank all but a couple of group instances either, Scouts and even Mages can tank them. So basically Pally's arent wanted in raids if you have other classes (as I said above) and arent needed in groups where DPS is better than tanking if a scout or even a mage can tank the instances. [/p][p]There is a massive class balance problem atm because scouts and even mages can tank Unrest and instance zones (except Niz) which means unless you have a weak group, tanks of any kind arent needed for groups. [/p][p]Guardians and Zerks are still valued in raids and SK's more so than Paladins, so if you arent required for group instances and not for raids where does that leave you?[/p][p]I played EQ before EQ2 and have played a Pally for 7 years and MT'd raids in EQ. I was around when hybrids were despised. I am not intending to reroll my Pally but I am waiting for the wheel to turn so they become more wanted in raids and most instances need plate tanks for groups to survive in them. This means rebalancing of content or Crusaders as a class.[/p][p]Niz is about the only group instance that needs a plate tank atm, if Crusaders arent used in nearly all raids where does that leave us? I cant even tag along on raids to upgear so I am a better tank for group instances with Guildees, people say why bother when a scout can tank those instances and has better DPS?[/p][p]Paladin - can amends a high dps class (troubador does a better job for the whole group) Can do so/so group healing - Any priest a far better choice, as they can actually cure, and a druid will out dps the paladin when not healing Rez - Dirges, Necros, Priests all do this as well or better. - Mistrose[/p][p]Rez range is an important issue, on a raid you can spend a lot of time sorting through piles of bodies trying to rez a person in a raid and you dont have time for that. The targetting arrow isnt that visible when you have settings turned down for a raid and even outside raids its often hard to see.[/p][p]A solution would be to either nerf other classes to make Crusaders better or boost Crusader abilities to make them needed more. Making Pally heals faster/reactive (spot healing role) and having HoTs, self only DPS buff and group cures/divine mana regen would help as well as a self DPS buff. Either that or make named mobs cut through non plate mit more easilly so scouts/mages cant tank most instance zones.[/p][p]Anyway these are my thoughts, has anyone any news on planned changes to our class or are we in limbo looking for a role?[/p]
[p]I understand where you are coming from Tame... I'm in the process of rolling a brigand just to have something worth taking on a raid these days...[/p][p]As for group tanking, I do not believe there is a better group tank than the paladin. It is in this area that the diversity of the class really shines, add to that the amends and sigil and you should never loose agro. I current run as the guilds I'm in's MT and I've only had problems with a couple mobs (the sleeping droag in HoF, the final mob in OOB and the final dragon for BCG). Granted, the sleeping droag, I've not faced since I upgraded a good bit of my armor to fabled stuff, so I might fair better with him now.[/p]
I don't raid, but I recently turned 68 so I might start occasionally raiding so it is a topic that I am interested in. Are Paladins useful in perhaps supporting a group of casters? I have a 10sec recast ward plus some good-sized heals, plus I buff casting and melee skills in the group for around +35 and have group health regen as well. In a full group, Combat Leadership can add some extra damage as well, on top of our admittedly less-than-stellar dps (perhaps with a good bow?). EDIT: I would suppose the lack of a group cure could be a problem, and the cure AA would be very helpful (which I don't have right now).
[p]I feel your pain. There is a stigma with being a Pally in a raid environment. I actually got to tank quite a bit and made a niche for myself as being the OT for adds group encounters. But, you do have an uphill climb unfortunately. Personally, I've given up the fight and retired my Pally and went Necro. If you want to raid alot then unfortunately Pally is not the class for you.[/p][p] It sucks but it is what it is. People have been venting in the Pally channel for 2 and 1/2 years and nothing has been done to improve the class. This used to be a busy forum but for the most part its a barren wasteland now.[/p][p] [/p][p]Reroll[/p]
Yeah that's basically it. We have no place in raids and group content can be done with a predator for a tank, we've been asking for help from SOE for a very long time now and it has fallen on deaf ears.
[p]For me, the final straw for raiding on my Pally (which I'll continue to do until my brigand is leveled) was getting shoved into a group of three pallies, a fury, a mystic and a illusionist... No real good buffs for us and as a group we suffered bad.[/p][p]The group I was in prior to that (mage group) I was pushing between 600-900 dps (which is excellent for me) I wound up parsing just over 350 for the entire zone... I had never quite felt like a complete waste before... noone to amends, noone to enjoy my proc buff and no ability to do any DPS myself...[/p]
[p]Wow, as much as I love my pally and dream of him being end game, all this is really depressing. As far as I can see you guys see no hope for this class.[/p][p]Isn't a 4X raid 24 players? There are 24 classes. Two players of the same class wont stack their same buff/debuff/benifets for the raid. Cant we give our mit to MT+ buff mit to group? im more than positive that's not the only benefit to a raid. Cant we Tank EVERY encounter on the game? Im sure there was a post where you all were saying " yes we can" I don't think any scout or mage can ever say that. Im sure with the amount of custumization that this game gives people can do amazing this, but is a swashy/brig really going to be a better tank that a pally?[/p][p]What id like to know, is the reason we are second rate tanks in this because we ARE, or is it because that's how the stereotype had evolved in the past years? [/p]
[p]I agree that Paladins are excellant group tanks for instances but my Swashy can tank all group instances (relic standard gear) with a group that knows how to assist and do far more DPS making the fights much shorter.[/p][p]People prefer my Swashy to tank as the group instance is finished faster. A Pally can be a safer bet for a group but once people are used to an instance then a scout or mage can tank it. Of course if you have a poor pickup group then a Crusader tank is better insurance. So we are relegated to tanks for groups that cant hack it otherwise :-([/p][p]Its not so much whether we can do something but that others can fill a role better :-([/p][p] [/p]
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Yeah that was me, I told her who to move where to get the best raid DPS that night. Truth of the matter is a Paladin should not take up a spot in the mage group with a troub if there are enough mages to fill it. A Paladin should not take a spot in the scout group with the dirge if there are enough DPS scouts to fill it. I did have her toss in the Illusionist for you guys tho, so one of you should have gotten IA and all should have gotten haste.
Magnis@Nagafen wrote: Actually Magnis, I still love my pally, but there really is no place on a raid for them. Guards/Zerkers are better tanks, Healers are better healers, and if you want DPS take a real DPS class. As for deagro, a troub will do you more good over an entire group than a paladin will for one. As for the stacking issue, some buffs are group only, so in some cases having multiples of some classes isn't a bad thing. A single paladin might be able to find a home on a raid in the mage group, but they will be the first left home too.
Liluk@Nagafen wrote: To be honest bud, you might as well have told us to go home. At that point, we were worthless.
Magnis@Nagafen wrote: 24 classes, but you want some that overlap. We should never be in the MT group to give our mit to them. We can tank almost every encounter in the game, HOWEVER a Warrior can tank it so much easier. So why would a raid use a Paladin for a tank if they have a Warrior who will have an easier time doing it? We're second rate tanks because we lack the short terms that the Warriors have that makes them the #1 and #2 raid tanks. And as already mentioned Predators now can tank group content (I have a 70 Ranger that I take everything up to Unrest with just fine, I can't tank Unrest because I lack the gear). A really good Paladin can find a niche on a raid with a given guild. I will not tell you how many times I've had to prove myself to my guild on my Paladin to warrant a raid position. However, I will always be the first to give up my spot because I know that they are hindering themselves by taking me out raiding.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Well one of the Paladins was the OT, I had hoped one of you would have put your mit on the OT leaving the other 2 to DPS. There was no other place to put you guys. You mentioned you were doing 600-900 DPS in the mage group, but you were taking the spot of a mage who could have been doing 1500+ in that group. Our raid DPS was sucking big time that night, we were doing 11-13k on trash, something needed to be changed.
[p]Oh, I'm not saying that bud, it was probably the right set up for who we had.[/p][p]It was just frustrating, exceptionally frustrating for me.[/p]
[p]You can't deny that warrior class are still prefer over crusader when you looking at tanking high end raid content. Everyone is gonna go for the tank setup that will give them the least amount of trouble. My guild only has me as a paladin and we do have another but his an alt. I hand over tanking position to a berserk/guardian any day. Well if you're on a PVP server paladin is one of the best tank out there along with berserk/guardian.[/p][p]Not much you can do when you like the guild that you're in and even give up certain aa line setup to go with one that benefit your guild when it comes to raiding.[/p]
Liluk@Nagafen wrote: Welp, won't be a problem for much longer. I'll keep Jal around for group instances for tanking for the guild, but going to be leveling something that might actually be wanted on a raid.
Abel@Nagafen wrote: That's the hard part when it comes to being a raiding Paladin on a PVP server eh Abel?
