As a Healer on the other side of it... somewhere at the 22K+ mitigation club (AoM for sure... ToT we'll see if still true...) class differences don't matter anymore Guardian, Berserker, Monk, Paladin, Shadowknight, etc. and neither does the presence of a shield. Between 12K-20K I can definitely tell the tank's skill as a player since their choices in AA, Buttons Pressed, and Shield/DW matter vs the Class they are. i.e. 16K Mitigation Berserker feels as - even - to heal as a 20K Guardian. i.e. 20K Mitigation Shadowknight feels as - even - to heal as a 18K Guardian This year in ToT with the gear reset but not a class/level/AA one I'd still say that Mitigation need and the ability to get away with less/more avoidance through block or a shield comes down to: Are you outside the 12K-22K band? If yes - your choices don't matter since the heals I'm using to ensure the mages don't go down are more than enough for you.... If no - then your class, your AA setup, you button knowledge, and the presence of a shield will affect how hard I have to cover you whether it's Rise to Power, Bar Brawl, etc. 1/5 _ _ _ _
In bleeding edge zones last year like Ssraeshza Temple: Taskmaster's Echo & Ssraeshza Temple: Inner Sanctum (Heroic): Mitigation, Block, and Class tend to follow this list for me as the healer... 20K+ Mitigation - Trickle of heals needed if not a % based healing class. Any % based class is nearly invincible except for script fails. 16K-18K Mitigation - % Based healing classes' heals about this level make them nearly unkillable due to temp rotation. In the regular (RoM, HH, etc.) zones they are demigods. The non-healing classes need a shield or I'm overhealing them in case there's a spike. 12K-14K Mitigation - Solo healing any of the % based healing classes from Lost Caverns to Resonance of Malice was an exercise in the healer using stoneskins, immunities, deathsaves, and other such non-sense to overcompensate. The non-healing classes using a shield at this level of mitigation felt like the same amount of effort as a % healing class at 16K-18K mitgation. Often tanks at this level of mitigation didn't have high enough resists on the jewelry to properly test this mitigation in anything harder than RoM although I'm sure the Dev's checked it out. 2/5 _ _ _
Block isn't as important as it once was. In tov block as very important. In aom block wasn't as important. In tot block is even less important. If you want to effectively tank raid content you need a lot of hp and a lot of MIT. As a bruiser I tank everything with 90-99 block, 19-19.5k mit, and almost 7mil hp unbuffed. In raid in combat my hp goes to about 11mil and mit goes to 32-34k MIT. There is nothing melee wise that will one shot me. Also, most spells won't one shot me. Even devs have said avoidance won't be as important as having a lot of MIT and hp. That is also the reason why none of the tot armor has "extra xxx%". The max hp, sta, mit % and raw mit is much higher than aom armor. You can believe someone who mts raid content all the time or you can keep thinking you need to max your block and make tanking more difficult for yourself.
Here's ToT Specific Examples: 1. ToT Raid monk in KP contested? - Didn't really need heals. 2. Non-Raid Shadowknight in Algorithm for Destruction? -I almost swore off heroics in ToT as that was as much work as trying to solo heal a tank without proper resists in Resonance of Malice last year... I did it but with every trick in my book... I haven't been back to that zone since... Master's Chosen is just more my style if I'm going to work that hard at it. 3. non-ToT Monk in Rise to Power? -It was an effort with ~ 70% overheals... They didn't understand non-ToT raid gear didn't mean they were easy to heal... I did it but I didn't like it... 4. ToT-Shadowknight, Paladin, or Guardian in Rise to Power with big pulls? -About the same... What I use to cover the mages/scouts is also enough for them... 5. ToT-Paladin or Berserker in District of Ash with normal pulls? -About the same... Except when Battle Frenzy is up when I can treat it like a tank-Divine Guidance... 6. ToT-Shadowknight in Palace Foray? -About the same as the ToT-SK/GD in Rise to Power except for the scripts obviously. That being said... Tank players that are keen on the aggro tools for the adds in the last fight are much appreciated by the healer... When I healed it i had to cover the other players like SK's don't have the sheer number of snaps as a GD does. Player or the class? Not sure... When I did it on the Guardian it felt like the zone was tailor made for the class... 3/5 _ _ _ _
Frankly, as a healer a tank's Health 3.5-8.5 million doesn't seem to matter as much as their mitigation band. It is just that often when a tank has 8 million health they also have /beat EQ2 mitigation or avoidance levels since those things are itemized along with it. Yeah there's a couple of spots like the Hive Mind and the Master's Chosen where you want to be 7 million + no matter the tank class but for most of it 3-5 million is fine. But early in the game like your Berserker guildmate happens to be... Mitigation and using a shield mean far more to your healers than 3.5 vs 5.5 million hit points... The + block <<<<<< +mitigation at their level in the band as long as they've got a tower shield in the slot. Boosting block at the expense of mitigation just doesn't work out under 18K mitigation for most classes... I still cringe inside every time I end up with a Crusader in medium+ content (AoM or ToT) as either it is /beat EQ2 and the player doesn't really need a healer in their mind or the other end of the spectrum where they're down at 16K mitigation and going DW/2H pushing the limits of my solo heal capacity clueless that only main, 5+ expansion pack healers can handle their absurdity in groups as they replace others who can't - solo - heal whatever nonsense loot-fiesta whole zone pulls with ACT DPS in mind. The players attracted to Crusaders and Berserkers tend to make different choices than those drawn to Monks, Guardians, etc. So it's less about class differences and mechanics balance than it is who's - driving - the character... Gently helping them figure their choices out takes a different approach than those more willing to receive criticism. 4/5 _ _ _ _
If that player needed assistance figuring out by trial and error whether block or mitigation matters more vs where they are in the band I'd pair them with a ToT Mastercrafted Inquisitor or Warden to help them figure it out. Wards got too big/small (up or not), Furies either have a ton of mobs to overheal from (or not), and Templars have all those stoneskins but pair your Berserker guildmate with a run of the mill / competent but not overgeared Warden or Inquisitor and they'll be able to feel how fast their hit points yo-yo vs regular content. I'd suggest systematic comparison (3 runs each) for Rise to Power (1-2 encounters only not whole rooms), Bar Brawl (try to push it and pull as much as you can target), and Palace Foray (1-2 encounters). Your guildmate will definitely feel where the mitigation/block tuning is for the mechanics. Have them groupsay a macro for Battle Frenzy so the healer can get in sync. 5/5 _ _ _ _ And as an Inquisitor with hundreds of hours of AoM pairing with a Berserker... 16k-18k should really be a minimum of mitigation any Berserker should be running around with otherwise whoever happens to be stretching to solo heal them is going to burn out and not want to run as many zones as they might otherwise... If a plate tank doesn't have 20K mitigation in ToT there better be a tower shield and if not don't be pulling 24 mobs at once if the DPS can't mow them down before Divine Guidance (or Battle Frenzy, Prepared Defenses, etc.) goes down... Hope that helps.
Here is an idea for changing Block. Imagine block sort of like an insta-shot of extra Mitigation. Like say a tank has 12k MIT. He happens to block an incoming hit and when a block is successful the 12k MIT jumps to 15k MIT for that hit, then changes back. The tank will still get hit but since MIT is higher the damage will be less.
I agree completely from both a tanking and healing standpoint. Mitigation is far more important for plate wearing tanks vs leathers, although leather will definitely benefit from higher mit. Plates are there to take a beating and mitigate as much as possible, leathers are there to block and avoid as much as possible. My raiding Zerker sits at 30k Mit with 6 mil health, higher with procs, but like it was said above, he has few issues other than a break down in the scripts. I heal with my defiler with another raid team and can easily see the difference between a moderate mit 20k tank and a what I consider extremely low, 15k mit tank. Sure they may have high health, 4,5,6 mil health, but bamm they take a hit like no tomorrow. I actually find these tanks frustrating and painful to heal.
I think I've done all the herioc zones and my advanced solo gear (~20k mit 47% block, 2.8M health solo buffed at the time) was adequate for every zone... some zones I was able to pretty much pull half the zone without too much issue on most of the instances; the rest were pull a few groups, kill and next set pretty rapidly. A few script fails aside the majority of the zones were pretty much like that. And then there was that one zone (I can't remember the name but it as pretty much instant-kill mechanics - ever increasing DoT) and I was told at the end the reason I died all the time as my resists (200k in group) were not enough. So with that in mind I'd say with a competent tank who gears mitigation will be fine AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THE RESISTS.
i have got high numbers of both but aim for about 22k mit then go for block there are plenty jewellery piece's that offer +mit and block combined and some that double there amount when grouped. the zone you are on about is properly tepid depths the trash in there hit hard i always pull with a stoneskin up i have 235k resists and still can get one shot if i don't block on pull
I gave up on block being a viable stat for tanks when AoM was released. Every welfare, trash mob and his 2nd cousin had 50% plus strikethrough. So....what's the point? Mit for the win!
i have both capped in raid still better to get hit softly and less often than just get hit constantly
At what point does mitigation become irrelevent? My zerker is at 28k self buffed and over 30k in group content. I read somewhere last xpack that at 35k you are mitigating 75% of damage against mobs level 104-108, thus "capped". Does this still hold true?
Looks like my "seat of the pants" intuition was correct. * 20K mitigation just sitting there and 25K in combat feels like the sweet spot for Heroics. * 12K-14K feels horrible to heal through and that chart shows why.
That table is very useful, thanks for posting it. I came back to the game after a 5 year break, and I haven't tried tanking since release. I'm trying it now and I've been having a hard time, but after seeing that table and researching block chance some more, I've made a lot of tweaks and increased my mitigation from 11k to 15k. It's amazing what you can do with some mastercraft effects and a bunch of old gear I didn't realize was good. I like the variety of gear in this expansion and it's been fun tweaking all of my classes into where they need to be. Excited to try tanking again tonight and seeing how much easier heroics are with an effective ~23% increase in damage reduction, according to the table.
Is that table for standard mobs? Epic? Heroic? As the in game character window gives mitigation percent vs level 100 standard mobs, I'm wondering if this is the same.
There is no difference in " HOW " damage is dealt between Weak / Standard / Heroic / Epic Mobs. The difference you see and feel comes from the buff package that is assigned to such classes. The Mitigation Standard listed above still applies for a lvl 108 Weak Mob vs a lvl 108 Epic Mob. As a Bruiser myself, I run 23k Mit Self buffed and only ~ 4.5 to 5 million HP depending on what piece of gear I put on. I do not use any of the 24% Max HP Items but have them just in case. I raid tank and have heroic tanked every zone. The only and I meen only healer that cant solo heal me " Well " is a fury lol, and even then they can solo heal me, it just requires more attention to my temp rotation. Now, on that note, I am still maintaining 70% Uncontested Block in group and raid just because of the class. I dont think I could come close to 70% Uncontested Block and 23k Mit on my Zerk even with a shield.
