Elanjar, I really don't see why berserkers NEED personal DPS. You can be an offensive tank without beating every other class on the parse. Sure, you could use a DPS boost.. but nobody picks a tank up to do DPS. Utility is what brings a tank to raids. You could easily be the most offensive tank in the game with the right group buffs and ZERO improvement to your current dps. The mitigation tanking thing would work fine. Right now, the most damage any tank will take is the damage from adds immediately after they spawn. Main tanking is nothing but frontal AOE and deathtouch spike damage. However, while the damage output might not seem much different, the damage proc on hit that most of the big mobs have further increases their spike damage. There is a happy medium to be had between mitigating adds really well and mitigating the named enough that, in a pinch, you could tank it. Even if that happy medium is a 10s temp buff every 45s to a minute that grants you the physical damage reduction. Then it would be up for every set of adds, for nearly their entire life span, but still only function 20% of the time on a named. As for your shield concern.. there's a reason you have higher auto attack multipliers than we do. I can't even dual wield. Hell, I can't even equip a 2 hander without my class being basically neutered. We're so reliant on sword/board that our incoming damage is basically doubled or worse when we even get disarmed. Post some parses next time you raid, so I can compare them directly. Netty, Okay.
We are not asking to beat every singel class on the parse... really first i tough that you are just misunderstanding us but now im not sure... a dps boost does not mean beat every class on the parse neither are we asking for doing more dps than crusaders or brawlers. There is a huge gap betwen the classes in dps. And warriors dont have more auto attack mult we have higher base CB. With a shield and board your attacks hit higher. And its the same for warriors... Zerks atleast. Sure we have heals that are better than yours but with out a shield the inc is infact higher on a zerk than a pally. Brawlers have another playground since they dont need to use shields... Amd yes stone skin are good at singeltarget tanking and damage reduction better for adds... everyone know that. And parses... Well its useless unless someone in equil rolls a alt gear it up and you try it that way. Raid wide dps buffs debuffs and so on plays a huge part of it.
With shield and sword our attacks hit harder than YOU using a shield and sword. YOU using a 2 hander or dual wielding does more auto attack damage than we can do under any circumstances. I know this because even with the "super OP sword/board damage" you claim we have, a 2 hander STILL does more DPS when I equip it. Base crit bonus is still better than nothing. There isn't a huge gap. There's a moderate gap. I've seen our zerkers in raid, and even our guardian put up good numbers. Tanking versus offtanking makes a huge difference, and if you're not even offtanking, of course you can do good dps as a crusader. I'm not convinced that Berserkers are doing as little as you claim they are. Our guardian doesn't do that little compared to us. Our SK does a ton of DPS.. in recklessness.. when he's not tanking.. and there are adds stacked to burn on the named.. and he has 800k VCs. And you won't be able to compete with SKs. Nor do you say you want to. But you say you need more dps. I still don't understand why you want more personal DPS. I can't think of a single tank in the world that would take personal DPS over good utility unless they are having aggro troubles.. and those aggro troubles can be fixed by other methods. Parses can be interpreted. It doesn't need to directly compare.
Yes ? thats what i said... You do more damage with sword and board than a warrior. Thats a fact. And that has nothing to do with your auto attack. It has to do with your spells and procs for crusaders. And brawlers... well they have amazing self procs and can be max defensiv DWing or using 2handers. I for one dont care about the dps when im dwing i want a small boost when im wearing a shield so i can compete. All you are saying that the dps a tank put out dont matter but it does. And right now both sk and bruiser are putting out ALOT more dps when wearing a shield. And what are good numbers? and what are those numbers compared to sk or a bruiser? And tbh i would take the utility. As the utility works as dps boost for me aswell. But the utility need to be good. I dont really want something as OP as CM. But i want good utility. And for the last time we shouldent compete with pallys... you are a -------> DEFENSIV TANK <----- We should compete with SK:s and brawlers. And i am not asking for parsing just as good as them. Just a boost in utility and a small boost in our dps when wearing a shield. Why? Since i want to be balanced in... Just like you want your class to be wanted... just like every other tank class want to be wanted. Tbh i would do so much better than i am atm and have it easier if i played my bruiser or rolled a SK. But i love my zerk and thats what im staying on. Give berserk to much damage reduction will make us unbalanced again. Since if you want a zerk to be best at taking damage from aoe fights you need to boost the damage over a brawlers 360 avoidance. And its just not poss with out making it OP. It feels pointless this tbh... Im not sure if its my english or what it is but i have never asked for a huge dps increas. Small boost and some utility to compete with. Like i said in the feedback thread... Change focus berserk into a small damage proc. (adds like 11combat skill live) change focus controlled rage into more block more like 10-15% (adds 5% live) Change wall of force into a all damage stoneskin or atleast magical damage if thats better I know some ppl want Gut roar but the recast on that is to short and would make it OP. Recast with max reuse on that one is 1.30min and its 2 stoneskin physical atm. Fix reversal in the warrior tree. It triggers damage when you block the problem with it atm is that it can only trigger every 30 sec. And that need to be lowered. And a health buff on the Dstance. This would fix most of the issues. Sure more might be needed but its a start and we can see where it goes from there. The dps from reversal ONLY works if you have a shield on so the dps increas is when you are wearing a sword or board. Do you really think this is to ask for to much to fix this class? its not.
Netty wrote: Ask Buffrat to chime in. He's had a zerker for a while. I'm sure others do as well. I agree w/ what Maer has been saying. Specifics are good to request improvement to the class, but you should be comparing to your counterpart tank before other classes, even if you play in different roles. I could think of a few ways to improve ultility via melee buffs, etc, but I'm pretty sure most suggestions fall on deaf ears around here.
Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote: WOW, Sweet baby Kerafyrm....... Explain to me why you think this should be true??? Berserkers are offensive tanks, same as SKs. There is no denying this.... YET: We are expected to DPS less than everyone but Guard and Paladin, even Monks own us on AoE these days. We are one of the worst defensive tanks, unless we are fighting swarm adds that can be tanked by Warlocks. We have ZERO unique HP buffs, much less the metric Fton SK's were randomly gifted last year. %based HP lol's at any and all normal HP buffs. We have JACK for utility. Nobody cares at all, not one bit about our group utility. We have no Hate siphons or transfers. Not even asking for one, just tossing it into the pile. We receive very very little from the "mage utility" Illy and Troub, while Crusaders get just as much from the "melee utility" Dirge/Coercer and still get huge boosts from the mage utility We don't get much from Reckless because our CA's are bad bad bad. Except for AoE's I guess. The only way I can concede we "should" do less DPS than SKs is if, when we drop our shield, we owned them; WE LOSE ALL OUR AVOIDANCE WHEN WE DO THIS, so yes, we should out-DPS you. Use a 2Hander to catch up and feel the pain we do. Our best abilities are neutered or outdated. Adrenaline is okay but not good enough to have that power drain attached to it any more. And AoE auto is capped and easily accessible by other fighters, scouts and Priests The new Prestiges should be tossed on the scrap heap. They do nothing to make up the severe gap in utility/DPS/defensive ability that we still suffer from. FIX Warrior AA Tree, Adrenaline/Juggernaut/Open Wounds/Wall of Force. Get us more single target damage ability and a TON more group utility. Defensively give us more ability to avoid spell damage (Wall of Force). I do not want to be OP. I do not want to become the FoTM class. I want to be on a level playing field. I WANT TO STOP BEING NEGLECTED BY THE DEVELOPER COMMUNITY. There are so many examples of fixes and suggestions on this forum it is nauseating. DO IT.
Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote: There are exhaustive lists and suggestion in other forums/topics. Groupwide Rampage/Open Wounds...a damage proc on berserk....an overhaul of Juggernaut...Hate siphon on berserk...So many I'm sick of coming up with ideas. If outparsing Guardians is all Zerkers have to look forward to, in your opinion, then we should be the second best defensive tank. Balance DPS/Utility with Defense. Since we have weak DPS and zero utility, we should be better defensively. However since we are pigeonholed into OT's, we aren't allowed to have amazing defensive skills (see Adrenaline nerf) so we MUST ask for more utility and DPS. Like it or not, our DPS is directly tied to our hate generation just as SK's is, so yes a DPS gain is a must. And really you cant even compare Zerker DPS without a shield with SK's with a shield because we are Tanks and should use a shield when actively tanking... If we drop the shield we aren't really tanks. It's only useful for meaningless content.
I can't explain this any more clearly: Offensive means you bring more DPS to the raid. Defensive means you bring more survivability to the raid. It doesn't matter if that DPS comes from yourself, or you grant it to others. The second you start beating DPS classes on the parse (Which SKs can currently do), the second your class hits a grinding halt and gets the "OP" flag. Utility stuff doesn't have the same effect. Your parse means absolutely nothing. Nor are tanks required to use a shield. Look at brawlers. Their class is built around NOT having a shield due to innate avoidance. The same can be done with enough mitigation. You're not pigeonholed into offtanking. You're pigeonholed into siting on the bench. There are tons of ways to give you hate gain that doesn't involve doing huge amounts of DPS. I can guarantee that once you stop screaming for silly things like max health and more DPS, things will improve for your class. Those are too broad and too regulated to change drastically, and they'll only patch up the problem until DPS and HP rise even more over the next year or two. If you don't plan ahead, you're going to be constantly playing catch up. Berserkers need a huge shift towards mitigation tanking, offensive utility similar in power to combat mastery, and to have large amounts of hate gain when hit/attacking.
Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote: We can't all have easy mode amends, can we? Zerks and SKs are both meant to DPS their way to hate, always have. Study up a bit on how to read what everyone is saying to you, because we are all asking for more utility and survivability. Your inaccurate assumptions are making you look like a clown.
And I suggested more utility and survivability. Except I suggested something that can be given in large quantities and will ONLY affect your class for offtanking, not main tanking. That's the difference. As for amends, you just made yourself look like a fool. Congratulations. I have played a berserker recently. You must not have played a paladin since EoF/RoK, if at all.
