Berserker Suggestions!

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Maergoth, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. ARCHIVED-Maergoth Guest

    Inb4 Talathion jokes.
    For starters, I don't know what niche you guys want berserkers to be in. DPS wise, the tanks are pretty tied to their counterparts. Paladins and SKs both do good spell DPS. Brawlers are primarily single target. Tank wise, their roles differ. Paladins are better single target tanks, as are monks. Shadowknights and bruisers? are technically more geared towards AOE aggro and survivability.
    Where do berserkers fall? Look! I made a Microsoft Paint!

    So.. Following suit. Zerkers should be AOE tanks (Aggro and survivability wise), Single target melee DPS (This is the tough pill to swallow, but deviate and keep their AOE focus if you have to.) and offensive buffs.

    A few suggestions to shift towards this:

    Tanking - Numerical damage reduction. Percentages are equally effective versus big mobs hitting like trucks, and adds stinging like a swarm of bees. Numerical damage reduction obviously would be much more effective versus swarm adds than a hard hitting single target. Every class gets a little of this via AAs, but Berserkers could really shine as reasonably stalwart AOE tanks with enough of it. Their current aggro abilities could be adjusted to be more powerful if any DPS changes hurt their AOE aggro.
    DPS - This is the tough one. Personally, I don't think Warriors should be about self dps. The idea of a berserker kind of calls for it, but I just think Berserkers would be much better off if their role were more clearly defined. I'm not saying to change what they've got, but rather to not keep trying to replace the AE auto attack glory days with some other method of AOE dps. They can make up for that with some support stuff. If all else fails, maybe make their AE auto hit more than 4 targets somehow? Seems difficult.
    Support - This is one of those things that tanks love. Personal DPS is cool, but so is doing things people actually care about. Amends used to be one of those abilities that i'd get spammed for forgetting to cast it. Death March is still pretty huge. Guardians have all kinds of defensive group stuff. Berserkers are plagued with temp buffs for stats that they are capped on already. I suggest letting them turn those temp buffs into group buffs. Granting them propogation of their own stats to the group, in part or whole pending balance, would be an awesome change. Sure, sitting at like, 400 DPS mod DOES still provide the zerker with small benefits, but having a percentage of his DPS mod granted to the group (25%? 15%?) while his temp DPS buff is up would provide the offensive group buffs that they really need. Warcry kind of stuff.

    With all of that said and done, you'd have a berserker with reasonably high AOE dps (Probably right behind crusaders), huge swarm add tanking capabilities (Superior to crusaders defensively, similar in aggro) and desirable offensive group buffs counterpart to the guardian's defensive ones and crusader's spell based stuff. They would fit nicely in the MT group with proper gear (as an SK can currently), or slip comfortably into the scout group providing a decent amount of those overcap bonuses.

    This is the best I can come up with.. and while the seven berserkers worldwide might be upset that they lose their AOE dps focus, they probably wouldn't notice it until after realizing the other directions their class has become awesome.
  2. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    Utility need to be more tho... I dont mind that crusaders and brawlers are parsing higher but the dps gap is higher than you make it out to be. I can parse close to our sk offensiv and dwing. And him defensiv and wearing a shield. Tbh he normaly parse higher anyway... If both are defensiv im no where near him on the parse... And parse around 150kish + on named aoe fights... (adds).For being a offensiv tank that is just wrong imo. tbh dps increas is needed but i rather see more offensiv group utility. See the other thread we made about this... it gots some nice and balanced ideas. and tbh both brawlers and crusaders would still parse more but zerks would get it abit easier to compete. more dps and haste... well its not as bad as it is right now but it wont do much for this class sadly. Taking damage we are just where we should be imo... Sure we probly take the most damage out of any other tank class... But that is not a problem the dps and utility is... i dont really think things will change since Xelgad is never showing up on the forums anymore and seams to think everything is balanced and good. Tbh pallys still need more love aswell... As do zerks... But as i said dont have to much hope for this class anymore. I dont want to play something els. Even if the raid would be better off if i played my bruiser. Both in surviveability utility and dps. But i dont want that. so its either that or find another tank. And tbh there arnt to many good left in game so im lucky tbh. Not all zerks are that lucky tho.
  3. ARCHIVED-Shotneedle Guest

    Aoe, Aoe Melee, Offensive.

    Berserkers need a support spell somewhat close to Combat Mastery. SKs should probably get one too but their personal dps is already sky high so meh.
  4. ARCHIVED-Maergoth Guest

    I think it really depends how many monsters you're fighting. 8 mobs, crusaders have so many AOEs that they can wreck the parse. It's hard to directly compare SK and berserker because that's cross class.
    Compared to Guardians, berserkers should do more DPS. Like, a third more. In ideal situations.
    I don't know you, or the scenario you're comparing against SK. I also don't know any end game berserkers. I do know that they have been chalked up to filling an almost identical role to crusaders, which is the wrong way to go IMO.
    Do less DPS. Give better buffs. Paladins have virtually no support abilities relevant in today's endgame. But even compared to shadowknights, Zerkers should have more.
    I really think what I suggested in OP for support stuff would be plenty DPS wise, pending conversion rates.

    And for bonus awesome points.. give them a temp buff that increases their group's hategain and gives them a sizable DPS boost. Combat Mastery levels of boost.
  5. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    Tbh that should be the pally role. Being the most defensiv aoe tank. As you are a defensiv tank. And you cant really compare guards and zerks since they are both meh as dps tanks but guards have amazing defensiv abiitys to make up for it. bruiser and sk should be the offensiv tanks zerks should compete with imo.
    I know pallys are not perfect but they still brings alot more usefull stuff to a raid imo. 15 cb/pot buff raidwide.. Raid wide mit buff for none fighters... a group wide damage proc. striketough/acc/spell resist group wide temp buff... a rezz group heal with health increas... a group cure.. avoidance and mit buffs on your singel target heals that can be cast on others.. small pot buff (not sure if top end pallys take this one tho) raidwide buff that increas heals and wis of the raid... Add that you can do more dps on linked mobs and can be placed in a group that is not built around the tank to be able to hold aggro. Yes imo it makes more sens to use a pally as OT. Sure zerks have more snap aggro but as i said befor i still feel that pally arnt where they should be aswell yet. And tbh if you read the ideas in the thread we did befor this one crusaders would still pump out more dps but zerks would bring abit more utility and have a small dps increas. There is a reason that reckless dont work as well on a zerk as it does for a crusader. And thats all about procs and buffs. You gain more from mage utility and there for gain more all around. Im glad tho that more see zerks need help right now tho so dont get me wrong.

    The biggest problem I have with my zerker (in a raiding enviroment) is power. Second is hate. If you put a zerker in a raid they have just enough hate with Insolence to get the group encounters attention, then as time passes by the hate drops significantly and Insolence timer wont be up until mobs start running off. Having a coercer and/or dirge is a requirement to make up for the inconsistancies of the zerker in raids. Shame.
    It would be nice if zerker had a Bruiser type of utility that lowered hate raidwide and added power somehow. And adrenaline needs to drop it's mana consumption rate. Zerker is the only tank in our raids that is ALWAYS out of power!
  7. ARCHIVED-Maergoth Guest

    Power is a problem for everyone almost always. Maybe berserkers have it rough, but that's a trade-off that should be there. The gains from that trade off may be imbalanced, but look at mana wall: Use it once per fight basically and it completely drains your power. For one hit.
    Hate wise, I agree. It seems like Berserkers (In theory) are lacking some of the tools they should have. Loads of passive hate gain or a proc chance snap on mobs not targeting tanks, etc.
    Paladins are versatile, and again.. comparing cross class isn't exactly the best idea. You want to be more offensive and more AOE oriented than GUARDIANS, not crusaders. Keep that in mind. Trying to balance against all classes at once is what screwed berserkers to begin with.
  8. ARCHIVED-GrandMasterUb Guest

    Your suggestion is actually pretty close to what berserkers are. That's why we are the choice tank for PLing. The problem with using numerical reduction is that it doesn't scale between levels of content and it is also very encounter design dependent.

    If you make zerkers "swarm add" tanks then they either become useless for raid content because their DR is too weak or the adds are so weak that another tank or even scout can handle it, thus you choose greater utility, dps, or ST tanking ability instead. Or if raid content demands a dedicated swarm tank with unique abilities we become OP in heroic content. Not to mention even the zerker you describe would be inferior to the other 5 tanks.

    What zerkers need is better threat, better damage, better utility, and competitive either DR or AE. tbh the real problem is the other tanks have too much. There are no niches left because everyone has everything.
  9. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    Are you for real or what? Ofcs we need to be balanced around the other tanks? The reason should be to take a berserker and no one will ever use us as Main tanks as brawlers and guards do it better. Tbh after seing what we get in beta so far im not sure what to think... the gap is just getting bigger and bigger....
  10. ARCHIVED-Maergoth Guest

    There are plenty of creative ways to grant berserkers numerical damage reduction that scales in effectiveness. A percentage of your max health is granted as numerical damage reduction, etc.
    Yes, berserkers should be balanced around all tanks, but they need to be balanced against their counterpart first. Once you find them a role, you balance them into it against other tanks. Right now, berserkers want to be able to main tank, offtank, do good damage, give good buffs, and hold good aggro.
    Right now, berserkers DO all of those things. They just don't do anything better than anyone else. Nor do they do anything special. That's the same problem paladins had last expansion, and every tank has dealt with in the past.
    Now, Paladins are amazing at single target tanking. Arguably the best in the game. We're still lame with snaps and provide virtually no offensive buffs (Heretics Destruction isn't as good as you think), but we have huge sustainability and a reasonable amount of spike damage reduction. Our single target dps is pretty lame, but you don't need to do everything at the same time.
    Right now, brawlers are incredible single target tanks but basically have no reason to be used on adds. And brawlers are widely considered to be "Super freaking OP" right now. They have a place in raids because they do specific things very well. They buff scout groups, and they have really good single target everything.
    Berserkers need a niche. Be the scout group add tank so you can do SOMETHING well, instead of everything mediocre. If you want to be AOE focused, you have to kiss your MT group advantages goodbye. Without competitive single target damage, you will have no place there over a guardian, because your buffs won't be good enough.
  11. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    But who have said that they want to be Main tanks as a zerk? I havent seen a singel post about it. However it should be poss just ST tanks should have better tools for it. You come here and claim that ppl want to be able to do all those things when if you look that the other thread we did the tools would not make us OP. You are the only one talking about zerks main tanking aoe fights... But the fact is a crusader and a brawler would still do it better. Tbh looking at the prestige now on beta and i bet they wont change since its a short beta... It feels worse and worse being a berserk.
  12. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    Tbh this is a joke... we got the worst stuff out of every singel tank class and i wonder why? why? Isent it time to give berserks something? Xelgad can you pls say something? What are you thinking? are you trying to kill off this class or what? since you dont care about it one bit... Even guardians got amazing prestige... And we got stuck with a death save that we wont be able to use on most stuff where we need it... and damage reduction when under a % of health? abilitys like that has always been junk as you should not be under those %ish anyway...
    Xelgad pls... can you explain for us why we keep getting shafted again and again? just say something explain to us why you are doing this? Do you think this class is ok? why?
  13. ARCHIVED-Maergoth Guest

    They're always open to suggestions, but the berserker community has been very poor at deciding what they want to do.
    What role do you want to be best at? Figure that out first, then worry about balancing into it. I guarantee your prestiges aren't as bad as Guardians.
    Either way, maybe I'm misunderstanding you because you're not making coherent posts. If that's the case, I can't help you, lol.
  14. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    We have? most of us are talking about OT:ing from the scout group and wanting good utility and a dps increas. A stoneskin or something to survive aoes better and a health buff. Im not sure whats not clear about that. You are the one that keeps saying zerks should not compete with crusaders. Zerks are offensiv tanks with junk offensiv stuff vs the other offensiv tanks. zerks should compete with SK/bruiser and pallys with Guards/monks. And have strong sides to it. Your idea about giving berserks more damage reduction is wrong. Zerks take the most damage and most are fine with that but we need utility and the dps to make up for it. And we dont have that or come even close to a sk or bruiser in anything.
    The problem with the death save is simple... Since you need to have adds on the fight or it will kill you. Or you have to waste yet another death save to survive it. And even if the fight have adds on it its not 100% sure they are up in time for you to kill them when you have to use the death save.
    The end ability is yet another trigger when you falls low on health... and most of the time if you do you are dead anyways.
    Also i dont think the guardian Prestige are bad at all. Guards have alot of stoneskins and abilitys to stay alive and alot to help the group surive on heavy aoe:s and so on. They got amazing snap aggro so that is not really needed aswell. So its just inline what the guardian should do imo. Protect the group/raid.
  15. ARCHIVED-Maergoth Guest

    Alright, so basically exactly what I said, except you want personal DPS instead of being able to tank things.
    I suggest you play a scout.

    Also, in your previous post you said: "But who have said that they want to be Main tanks as a zerk? I havent seen a singel post about it."
    This other guy (Actually, it was you) posted: "The reason should be to take a berserker and no one will ever use us as Main tanks as brawlers and guards do it better"

    Right now, zerkers don't have any tank abilities, defensive or aggro wise, that are better than anyone else's stuff. You don't have as much passive damage reduction, temp saves, spell damage reduction, stoneskins or HP as any of the other tanks. You don't have as good snap aggro, passive aggro or defensive self or group temps.
    Those are the things a TANK CLASS needs to have. They need to do SOME of that. DPS and utility always comes second. I agree, you guys should provide some killer buffs to the scout group. However, I also know that every tank SHOULD excel at tanking to some extent, in some way.

    Explain to me why exactly you need to do so much personal DPS? Why do you want a stoneskin if you don't want to main tank? Why do you want a health buff instead of damage reduction?
    I suggest you redo your AAs and you'll probably have better results. All of them.

    Berserkers, with a high amount of damage reduction, would be the opposite of an avoidance tank. In fact, you could probably dual wield or use a two hander in more situations than any other tank. Similar to that of a brawler. That's a huge benefit. If the buffs you give the group are as offensive as the guardians are defensive, you'll provide twice as much to a group as a crusader will. I'd gladly give up personal DPS to greatly increase group DPS. Because personal DPS only matters on the parse. Aggro can be handled completely separately under the right conditions.
    HP is a stat that is equally effective against adds AND a named. To recieve enough to give you an advantage on tanking adds would give you an equal advantage against the named. You can't have both. Damage reduction is more effective against adds.
    I stand by the idea that you should do ~30% more DPS than a guardian on single target, and be built around tanking adds and buffing a scout group. If getting those things means NOT doing the same DPS as a crusader or brawler, who cares?
    I haven't looked at the berserker prestiges, because this thread was made prior to beta start and isn't prestige feedback.
    As for the guardian prestiges, they're pretty bad. Ask the top guardians in the world how happy they are to take 50% more damage from AOEs to keep their group alive (who never die in the first place).
  16. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    Maybe you should play a scout? And we can have crusader dps nerfed? how about that? No. You keep falling back to is either not true or not needed. If you look at the dps a SK can put out and that a bruiser can put out + add the utility they both bring... And add that they are both beast tanks. Why do you think more damage reduction will fix anything... No one would want a berserk anyway as we buff less dps do less dps and are harder to keep alive. And tbh i dont think zerks lack snap aggro at all. Brawlers have more usefull snap aggro but zerks are not bad off imo.
    If you read it as i said that zerks should not be able to main tank you got me all wrong. My english is abit bad. What i mean is that the main role of a zerk should be as Offtanks. And you came with the idea about aoe main tanks but the dmg reduction needed to take the best hit on aoes would make us OP. The changes to to this need to be looked over.
    tbh im not sure what you are on about.... both crusaders and brawlers can parse well so you tell why do we need a dps boost? I have even said i number of times that i dont care if brawlers and crusaders are outparsing me but the gap shouldent be as big as it is. The stone skin or a block to survive on aoes abit better tbh. And yes we have a stone skin on AA but that one is really only nice if you want to main tank. The aoe makes as better aoe tanks.

    As far as taking damage. Tbh yes we do take the most damage but nothing huge is needed. the dps aspect and the utility are alot more importent if you want to compete.
    Health buff is needed as we have no %health increas at all. Well on heroic tree but everyone have that.
  17. ARCHIVED-GrandMasterUb Guest

    Again Maer we do have to compete with SKs and brawlers.
    And us zerkers have actually been pretty clear on what we want.
    1) spike damage mitigation
    2) melee group utility
    3) AoE dps

    And then of course the basic needs of a tank. Greater passive threat generation.

    Again these are simple fixes.
    1) Gut Roar and Wall of Force block all damage (a la the new Pally "Faith")
    2) Revamp Warrior and Berserker AA tree to add offensive utility and tweak unique berserker skills to effect the group
    3) Base increase in all CA damage along with larger increase to blue AoEs. Add scaling to AEauto (zerker unique?)
    Threat can be addressed a number of ways but the easiest would be increase reactive%, hate siphon on group berserk. Ticking threat abilities.

    And again our new prestiges are by far the weakest and most irrelevant.
  18. ARCHIVED-Maergoth Guest

    Netty, you've completely ignored everything I've said, so I'm done repeating myself. You're asking for EXACTLY what I suggested, MINUS the one thing that would make you a viable choice for tanking WITHOUT simply cloning other classes.

    Why do you want spike damage mitigation if you want to offtank? And if you want to main tank, why do you want AOE DPS? And if you want to do neither and be a DPS tank, similar to the SKs you're mentioning doing so well.. then why do you want aggro?
    No one is saying you don't need melee group utility, but utility and personal dps are 100% interchangable. I would gladly give up my 500k personal dps for 600k group DPS. Enough utility more than balances out your lack of personal DPS.
    Unfortunately, when you want to fill PART of every role, like you're saying in this thread, you won't do any of it better than a class that specializes. You'll do everything mediocre, exactly like it is now, and you won't have a spot in raids.
  19. ARCHIVED-GrandMasterUb Guest

    Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    But we didn't ask to fill part of every role. We asked for one ability that can block all damage (gut roar). We ask for group utility to make us competitive with the utility brought by a crusader or brawler (melee only is fine). And we ask for an increase in dps output (preferably AE focus'd) so that we are officially in the realms of "offensive tank" again. And finally we simply want enough threat generation to be a d*mn tank. I'll play my swashy if I want to be a DWing AE dps monster.
    I don't think that makes us a jack of all trades master of none like you are describing. I think it makes us competitive, primarily against the classes we would normally compete against.
    I really do like your idea of a mitigation based tank. I'd love to be able to tank adds DW/2H 90% of the time and not get pancaked because of my passive mitigation. Again I'll say the problem ends up being content. There isn't enough room between the levels of mitigation and incoming damage for that niche. You make the mobs strong enough that you need tank caliber mitigation then the zerkers ability to tank lots of "strong adds" ends up being powerful enough to MT. Then MT mobs are designed solely around spike one shots which zerks can't deal with and your tanks/healers qq about the content being annoying and completely random based and not fun, etc etc etc. If you make the mobs weaker so that the zerkers arent competing for ST stuff then it makes more sense to have a scout or brawler handle it since they'll put out more dps and utility and still handle the adds.
    Also why are warriors the only ones that pay a penalty to get "block". Really annoying how much of a dps loss we get when we put on a shield (compared to our fellow fighters).
  20. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    Spike damage is not only about taking death touchs. As a OT you sometimes have to stay close to a main mob with a huge aoe. If your group is not as stacked up as the MT group. It have one shooted me a few times... When have Dragon reflexes that can block a aoe but sometimes you need it to grab co-oping adds or just as a temp for taking to much damage.
    I rather see them change a few small things to make us abit easier to compete with the other tanks than change around some if needed later than making them best at something right away only to have it nerfed a short time after. Small changes here and there will make that happen. I rember SF the only time when i feelt that zerks was in good shape. Even OP befor the heal crit nerf. You had crusaders and brawlers calling for nerfs around the corner even tho all -guardians was kinda much inline and balanced (zerk might needed a nerf then but not totaly destroy a ability). I dont want to see that again...

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