Gungo@Crushbone wrote: [p]Lol what a post. Keep having your guild put a bruiser in the MT group on an orange mob instead of a coercer. I hope you guys succeed. Avoidance again on an orange mob really is almost fully negated so when you say, TON, i have problems believing you. If this is such a wonderful idea, why haven't u done it again? Simple answer, because it was a ****** idea to begin with and i have no idea how you managed to convince your leaders to begin with in allowing it. Keep posting wonderful ideas gungo you truly are a spectacle. IF bruisers were truly so amazing in the MT group, instead of a coercer, or 3 healers, or a dirge, i am pretty sure more guilds would use it ;p. However, you might find you are the minority here, which might tell you that you are wrong, and your idea was stupid. So again, we are sub par dps, that cant tank about 90 percent of all EoF raid names, have the worst or 2nd worst agro ahead of monks maybe, and have the utility of drag, a small dps mod which is the easiest to increases vs haste do to adornment and dps items, and one debuff......Explain to me why we should be on a raid again? You cant you are kidding yourself if you think another class cant do it better then you. I love the bruiser class, I wont stop playing my bruiser but it saddens me when we truly have no reason to be on any raids.[/p]
[p]Denubis i realize yoru not a good bruiser and i wasn't goign to justify why your guild makes you sit. But you have been nothing but a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in this thread. So here it is. You have no clue what the hell your talkign about. The simple matter is all a coercer adds to the group is hate gain, extra mana regen, Dps, and with the right aa's mana ward/heal crit. We killed it our first try with a bruiser in the MT group. Why, well not only did i add a dps buff as well, i was able to cure the group stun multipel times (w self cure and closed mind/ potion), I was able to intercede and self heal And shrug off was huge. The coercer added Nothing needed in that fight, the healer never ran out of mana and hate wasnt needed because dps was split between adds and jousting the aoe. See this gets to the point where you have no clue how your buffs work and shows why your guild considers you a poor player, hence you dont get invited to raids often. Do you realize w max parry + deflection i was able to avoid 1 out of 4 hits for the MT. Once the mob is debuffed his combat skill reduction is virtually negated and his lvl reduction can only go so far. So that 56% master 1 avoid buff actually makes a noticable impact. You can check my numbers by going through your log the day you learn to play your class. Until then keep crying until we get scout dps, becuase it should never happen. [/p][p]Finally you do realize every successful guild has a brawler in thier raid/guild. And the majority of the time its a bruiser. Why is that? Well because those that know how to play a bruiser do it so well we make an impact on how the guild performs. You on the other hand has already stated your guild is willing to sit you for practically any other class. Which leads many real bruisers to beleive your just a poor player. [/p]
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: [p]Jeez, Denubis, you had to go get him exercised![/p][p]<starts putting on his fire resist gear>[/p][p]It's not going to get any better from here. And I JUST got the bloodstains out of the boots, too.[/p][p]Redmouser Bruiser, AB [/p]
[p]While I agree we have some nice things to bring to a raid (especially since Drag is unique enough still), quite a few things mentioned can be done by many others.[/p][p]The avoidance buff at maste 1 is the same percentage chance for all fighters. A tower shield using plate tank should have quite close to the same avoidance we could give. ANY fighter in the raid can Intercede from any group and take the hit.. at which point, a single group heal or spot heal by that group's healer would be barely noticed... self heal isn't the be-all here. Especially since intercede can be recast far quicker than even our own quick self heal.[/p][p]Also, there's plenty of classes that are already wanted on the raid for other reasons that can debuff attack skill (bards, furies, etc). Eye-gouge does nothing for casting skill either, unfortunately.[/p][p] Between adornments and EoF gear, it's getting to the point that Brawlers can reach avoidance and mitigation that are "good enough" (reached soft cap) that we could be considered tank enough to take Epic hits. It would be nice if we had a little more in the way of single target aggro control to have a leg up in certain fights (and therefore preferred over plate tanks for such fights)... perhaps a way to land hits better?[/p][p]Alternatively, or in addtion, it would be nice to have a similarly group giving bonus to the other tanks... something like maybe a general group damage bonus or proc in addition to our minor +DPS bonus. Or, as an alternative, a general group +melee attack increase.. meaning folks land hits more often.[/p][p]These two things would definately make it so a Bruiser (or a Monk if they were given similar bonuses) in the MT group (or even the raid in general) would be much more wide spread, possibly even for tanking certain fights and at least for definitive group bonuses for doing damage or holding aggro.[/p][p] Basically.. while others could give all that we give in small parts, our package of benefits as a whole would be boosted just a bit to make us a little more... "wanted".[/p][p] [/p][p]Personally, I don't think our DPS needs to be increased much.. although I'd like more "options" to make our character builds "more fun". Numbers-wise we aren't all that bad for a tank... but we definately don't have any advantage anymore to warrant having fewer group/raid benefiting utility.[/p]
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: You have dodge my question again. So you continue to use a bruiser in the MT group? The answer is no. Yea i am a poor at my class lmao. I am so poor i tell my leaders to put me in the MT group so i can intercede.....being that you can do that cross group and give the MT a small avoidance upgrade instead of having a mana battery so the three healers can spam heal more if need be. To be honest once a mob the mob is debuffed do your healers actually have problems with keeping ur tank up? if so i think that might be your problem maybe u should get compitent healers and you would see you are even more useless to begin with. Some how u managed to pull out 1 out of 4 attacks from your ***. If you are soooooo good in the MT group why arent you permanently there? Again you advocated yourself being in the MT group on an orange mob... Gungo you are truly a funny funny man. The fact remains, you dont out dps any mage or scout, you dont tank or if u do (claim that you did once on one mob that was nerfed....and it isnt even confirmed....) you tank it worse then every other tank in the game, and you offer intercede and drag. If your guild has 24 other very skilled players you cant justify yourself being part of a raid unless it is one of the few that drag is actually extremely useful such as AoF. Oh ya and for avatar of fear cause bruiser are great at taking the DT because we are so useless otherwise. If you have a guild full of talented players who know their class, their is no reason to bring a brawler on a raid. Every raid guild has a bruiser? try again. Before you keep spitting complete fabrication get your facts straight. There are many end game guilds who either have no bruiser or no main brawler main. Even some that do have a bruiser have been with the guild for a long time which leads to the fact that they arent going to kick them... Anyways find a way to amuse me with your next post.
[p]Godsgift4040 wrote You have dodge my question again. So you continue to use a bruiser in the MT group? The answer is no. Yea i am a poor at my class lmao. I am so poor i tell my leaders to put me in the MT group so i can intercede.....being that you can do that cross group and give the MT a small avoidance upgrade instead of having a mana battery so the three healers can spam heal more if need be.[/p][p] [/p][p]Hey Gods Gift - usually, if you are in the MT group it means a couple of things in which you usually cannot have when interceding cross raid, or for buffing the MT w/ your avoidance.[/p][p]1.) Added avoidance from Dirge and Guard.[/p][p]2.) Crazy HP, thanks Mr. Defiler.[/p][p]3.) Best Wards that make Intercede much more viable, thanks again Mr. Defiler.[/p][p]-----------------------------------------[/p][p]I've been in a guild whose leaders have used your logic for quite some time (especially our former leader) - and it's my feeling that it is a large reason that we have not been as successful as we should be otherwise is what I call healer logic. The logic I speak of is the strat of regen in every group and alot of healers. "Let's heal this mob t/o death as opposed to killing it faster." Not only does that line of thinking totally sooook. But it's friggin' boring.[/p][p]I also don't think Gungo is saying Bruiser in the MT group everytime FTW. He's simply giving an example as to how Brawlers can be used benefically in a raid. Monks have a slightly better go at it in the MT group as we have similar avoidance, can heal the MT and can transfer just a little bit of hate w/ the right AA's - but bruiser has better utility. Group cure stun is huge.[/p]
[p] [/p][p]hi bruisers,[/p][p] i am reading this sad post, and probably any other, and i must say its not nice that we are now against each other.[/p][p]gungo, i read your posts since a long time already. you are the man who keeps the bruiser spirit up and try to give any positive aspect on the bruisers a chance. [/p][p]godsgift you at the other hand are the new type of players, see the thing which could be done better.[/p][p]both sides are right.[/p][p]for my thing, bruisers are a very good utility class for raids, but we need something what makes us more different than drag... [/p][p]yes we can dps - after butting everything into aa´s and have a ton of proc gear we need a good grp for more dps. but you can also but in the same grp a briga or a assassin and the dps of a bruiser looks awefull. and yes we can offtank if the mt is down. and we are not bad in that. but every raidforce has a zerker and a guardian for that - guardian down - zerker takes over - and where is now the bruiser with the ton of avoid gear? he is in the melee dps grp, trying to keep the raidleaders attention and praying that on the next named we are not getting replaced. and i think, the posters here are all the same lvl, more or less. everyone of us knows how to play the bruiser. excuse me, its not real hard to play eq2 at all. [/p][p] for my part, i wish that this class stay´s like it is. i dont want more dps - we are fighters. i dont want mitigation from a zerker - we have leather to avoid - what i want is just ONE more spell which makes the bruisers / monks needed! i think more of an grp wide antistun buff for more than a minute. something like that and we will be NEEDED and not used. [/p][p] shifter - valor[/p]
[p]Yeah, both Bruisers and Monks could use some type of added group enhancing Utility - and that's it.[/p][p]I tank fine when needed, but I don't want to be a raid MT b/c that's not what the brawler is.[/p][p]I DPS fine, even better than lazy scouts sometimes, but i'm not a T1 DPS class so I have no problem doing T2 DPS.[/p][p]So what am I? As a Monk I don't debuff anything other than Stamina from AA's, and the only buff I have is 22 haste. Sure, I know the few things I can bring to the raid table, but the way it stands now, how will I ever get to prove my worth to a new guild if i'm not already established? On paper, we suck. We're not even the last guy picked anymore in the kickball game - we are the kickball itself.[/p][p]The problem lies in the fact that we don't do jack for everyone else. Take a look at the somtimes spat on SK, and you'll find a heal proc, debuffs and their Death March is just icing on the cake (Death March is friggin nasty!!). SK's are like the plate tanking Dirge and they provide better overall raid DPS than Monks, that's for sure.[/p][p]Would it be so hard to make us the leather who can 'oh $hit' tank kinda like the SK?[/p][p]My guilds raid attendance has been way down of late, so i'm shopping my Monk. I found one guild that has some promise on the server who lacks a brawler, so I sent a tell to their leader in regards to my monk. "We don't have a brawler, nor do we want one ." was his response.[/p][p]There was a time when I would argue this guy until the end of eternity, however sadly, I now understand why they don't want one.[/p]
That pretty much sums it up for brawlers. I would have loved to to have a 70 brawler that raided but I did my research and I had to face facts and build a charactor that is needed. As far as I can tell the brawler is the least usefull class in a raid and being such I consider the class "Broken."
[p]The same can be said of crusaders as well. We are not broken as many brawlers world wide can show u. Look at sardonis in NPU, taucher in second dawn, etc etc. eveyr major guild uses brawlers . [/p][p]We are not recieving anything more to help us. Barring the AA wpn requirment changes. Maybe if we ar elucky the STr line will have the unarmed requirment removed and we can parse a bit higher and have a decent crushing mitigation debuff, but that is the most we will see. [/p][p] But back to denubis there is a big reason why thail parses higher then you. One bruiser just plays better then the other. [/p]
What game are you playing? Scouts tank better than us easily, w/ 2 times the DPS and group utility. And plates are not single-purposed, all tanks can DPS better than Brawlers, even Pallies. Get your facts straight, we don't need to be shoved into a class spot, we already ARE the hybrids, problem is every other class is just "Hybrid#4394348324" and you can practically list them in order of effectiveness.
Gungo@Lucan DLere wrote: Gungo same cant be said for crusaders.....last i checked they can tank anymob in the game and are great on every avatar fight. Clearly you struggle on idenifying roles of people on raid. Such as you being in the MT group on and orange mob....Yea thail raids everyday and i sit everyraid cause you are on befallen.......what knowledge you have. Keep spitting bs because you are in a corner and have no argument nor a rational thought of why we should be on a raid over another class other then monk ;p. Last i checked sardonis been in NPU for a long time and if you ask taucher in SD or just go look at the EQ2flames monk board, he basically says that he gets to sit the most out of any class and the only real reason he gets to raid is because he shows up....not because he is desired over another class. Look at the guild strike they dont have a single main brawler, look at the guild SoN whose bruiser either sits avatars or is the DT ***** on fear because the class is worthless. There is even more guilds out there who dont have a main brawler because we offer nothing atm that another class cant do better. All i want to see is the class get a boost of some sort because atm we are the LEAST desired class besides monk. I dont care if we get a worthwhile utility, good buffs, good debuffs, or up in dps, but clearly if the thought ww is that brawlers suck for end game raid content.....there is something wrong with the class. As always gungo when you get the time try to counter my argument, the intercede thought was pretty funny cause all tanks can do that......and at least we can reposition mobs with drag........last i checked if you have a good tank and good OT you dont need that skill.................
[p]"What game are you playing?" EQ2. I think you must have misposted from WoW or Vanguard, or something <shrugs.> Every scout I've ever been around turns into a little pool of goo, once the monster pulls off of me or the the platehead. If I don't start spamming the taunts, we've got a rez situation in under ten seconds. The only thing that folds faster are mages and card tables. I've seen rogues slap on a shield and play at fighter, but it's almost always only to entertain or as a lark, like when you let the healer pull.[/p][p]The ONLY "tank" that can approach us is a berzerker, and that only because of the crazy AoE stuff. Single opponents, not a chance. As far as a paladin or showknight ... maybe if we're AFK. Maybe.[/p][p]Get your facts straight. Or your game. Whichever caused the malfunction.[/p][p]Redmouser Bruiser, AB[/p]
Well both of us basically said the opposite of eachother, so there's no real point in arguing about it, I'm having fun playing my Bruiser, and evidently you are too. ...Oh, wait, forgot about your little WoW/Vanguard comment in there.
[p]Dear God I had to post a reply on this. I've never posted but I always get a kick out of reading my class forums. Some of you all obviously don't know how to play your class...plain and simple. A crusader out dpsing a brawler? Right...you obviously suck. I parse 1500-2200 depending on the encounter almost all the time and maybe 1100 self buffed with a crap group. Go find me a SK who can break 1400dps on a regular basis...what? Oh you cant. [/p][p]Whaa whaa Bruisers suck...then dont raid with one and try to make the rest of us look horrible. Bruisers can outdps any other fighter class with the exception that other people mentioned of Zerkers on certain encounters. 9/10 times I own the Zerkers dps...and thats in a group setup of Zerker/Bruiser/Dirge/Inq/Deflier/scout. Not the best setup and other then HP buff we get the same dps buffs. As for tanking...Ok there are certain mobs that leather just cant handle...people complain about fixing out class, maybe SOE should fix avoidance. Our dps is where it should be, its greater then slack rogues/mages and higher then all the other fighters. Our hps are better then nearly all other classes without any buffs on. Utility? Yeah drag is amazing, not just for positioning mobs (maybe Grovebeast add?) but for saving other classes who would get smashed without you there. [/p][p]Bruisers bring much to a raid...you just need to define your roll with your guild. Me? I'm dps/offtank/lifeguard/rezzer/comic relief/and the sexiest person that plays this game. Tank dies...I can and will grab the mob, someone pulls aggro...I drag it back to the tank...wipe? Yeah right Stonedeaf+FD...you go ahead and wipe. Brawlers as a class arent too fantastic, its the player that defines them. If you complain and whine about how horrible they are then obviously you have no talent. Because of people like you I need to work harder then most other raiders just so I'm taken seriously and respected. You have no idea how many times I've gotten tells like "Damn Dralvin, you're the best Bruiser I've seen". Yeah I'm fabled and master'd, but so is the Brawler parsing 600dps. The difference is I PLAY my character. Sorry I had to rant a little bit.[/p][p] You all ask at what point we are going to be fixed? Well we are. The only thing that SOE absolutely NEEDS to fix is the avoidance. Granted...buffed Mr.Guardian is at 69% avoidance in defensive...buffed Mr.Dralvin is at 70% in offensive. I couldnt care less if the numbers said I was at 100% avoidance...I'd still get hit more then a plate tank. Just food for thought. Maybe concentrate your feelings for SOE to fix the basic game mechanics instead of whining about a class that is doing pretty well even after it constantly gets nerferrrrr I mean "Fixed".[/p][p]Ok Just my 2 cents.[/p][p]www.myspace.com/ken522 [/p]
Tanus, I was with you until you said, "and the sexiest person that plays this game." Pretty much lost all cred as a bruiser right there [edit: you then listed a myspace account -50 DKP!!]
Let's try comparing things! Bruiser : Other classes |as| Bows : Guns Then again, a gun is a coward's weapon
Bruiser : Other classes |as| Swiss Army Knife : Full Toolkit Sure, you can kinda use the knife to do the job you want, sorta.. but the proper tools will do the job faster and better.
Just let me add 2 coppers. A well played and skilled bruiser adds many tools to the Raid that creates room for different strategies. We always have 1 bruiser on our raids. We may lose a bit zonewide dps. But we gain flexibility. Bruisers are a great class. They could get some love, agreed. But I am happy that I have a well played bruiser in my Raids. For what it is worth... /salute Hal
