Are summoners still doing ok?

Discussion in 'Mages' started by rutro, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. rutro Active Member

    I suppose that my real question is- are all classes just dpsing with ascension? If so, I will just roll a support class and have the best of both worlds. Thoughts? Other than- what do you like to play?
  2. Vogie Active Member

    Summoners are doing well just a bit behind Warlocks/Wizards atm. Anything that dies sub 1:30 Ascensions will be a big factor but the longer drawn out fights they play less of a roll somewhat. In the end it comes down to play what you enjoy playing. Not a huge need for Illy/Coercers atm, Troubs and Dirges are more sought after this expansion but I will stick to clothies since that's what you are inquiring about :)
    rutro likes this.
  3. Sigrdrifa Well-Known Member

    Ascensions are painfully slow to cast. DPS is "damage per SECOND", and the more seconds it takes to cast, the less DPS you are doing. I cast Ascension buff/debuff spells just at pull, or an Ascension damage spell if more efficient spells are down. I will use an Ascension AOE (I'm an etherealist) if I see the tank dragging in a big ol' bunch of mobs. And I cast to complete Ascension combos.

    You really need to set up Advanced Combat Tracker and a guildhall epic training dummy set to "immortal" and try out various cast orders. The highest efficiency spells are going to be your biggest DPS. If you have debuffs, you may want to experiment with throwing a debuff, then an attack or two that takes advantage of that debuff, then another debuff, etc.

    ACT also has an Ascension Combo plugin. When you see people shouting "surge {spellname}", they've got that macroed to their Ascension spells to trigger ACT. ACT then helpfully tells you if you should cast one of your Ascension spells to create a combo that does more damage. You do have to do some minor configuring with the plugin (i.e., check your current Ascension class).

    In power-sucking fights, you need to understand that Ascension spells cost a lot of power. AA spells cost less, but more than your regular profession spells. So that can change entirely what you cast as you try frantically to maintain power. Raid fights with a power drain often kill the whole raid if someone runs out of power, so it can be a big deal.
    Breanna likes this.
  4. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    Not sure what instances you're running in PoP, but power feeders are in fact quite useful because power draining from mobs is quite common.
  5. Xellium Active Member

    Both summoners are very good, Conj seem a bit ahead of the two.

    Upgraded ascensions are some of the most efficient spells you can cast.
    They have longer cast times but MUCH larger boom.
    You'll want to cast ascensions with fervor and potency buffs up.
    Most T1 DPS classes have 1 or 2 spells that are more efficient than ascension spells, the rest are well below.
    rutro likes this.
  6. Sigrdrifa Well-Known Member

    Can you show me the mathematics of that? Because, as per ACT, this is the DPS order I'm seeing for my conjy:
    • Planeswalker (Ancient)
    • Roaring Flames VII (GM)
    • Communion IV (GM)
    • Crystal Blast XI (GM)
    • Aqueous Swarm VIII (GM)
    • Implosion (Etherealist) (Journeyman)
    • Etherflash (Etherealist) (GM)
    • Earthquake VIII (GM)
    • Unda Arcanus Spiritus (AA)
    • Ice Storm X (GM)
    • Elemental Toxicity (AA)
    • Fiery Annihilation X (GM)
    • Cascading Force (Etherealist) (Expert)
    • Shattered Earth VIII (GM)
    • Theurgist's Detonation (AA)
    • Soulburn (AA)
    • Levinbolt (Etherealist) (GM)
    • Elemental Blast (AA)
    • Focused Blast (Etherealist) (GM)
    • Winds of Velious V (GM)
    • Arcane Bewilderment (AA)
    • Ethershadow Assassin (Etherealist) (Journeyman)
    Dragon's Armory shows efficiency, but is less than helpful because it doesn't show efficiency for pets or Ascensions, and I'm not sure what equation they're using to calculate the value:
    • Soulburn (AA) ...............1,076,299,002.1
    • Theurgist's Detonation (AA) ...680,203,483.5
    • Elemental Blast (AA) ..........542,191,867.9
    • Arcane Bewilderment (AA) ......480,663,909.1
    • Earthquake VIII (GM) ..........200,576,078.1
    • Crystal Blast XI (GM) .........134,630,293.5
    • Fiery Annihilation X (GM) .....122,846,460.4
    • Blazing Avatar VI (GM) .........94,092,533.5
    • Elemental Toxicity (AA) ........88,909,021.0
    • Ice Storm X (GM) ...............78,267,179.9
    • Winds of Velious V (GM) ........66,852,210.5
    • Shattered Earth VIII (GM) ......40,305,908.1
  7. Vogie Active Member

    Sorry i was speaking in terms of raiding only. I just assumed he was asking about raiding as heroics any dps works. You could use a warden tree or Beastlord power feed for heroics as well or Defiler power regen for that matter.
  8. Vogie Active Member

    I have no way of linking pictures on EQ2 Forums but if you are on Discord I can show you what Xellium is talking about. If you are an Etherealist Ethereshadow Assassin, Cascading force will be top 5 for most dps classes. If you are a Melee add in Feedback loop to the top 5 but only if you are Master/Grandmastered on Ascensions. They make a HUGE difference on your overall parses for shorter duration fights.
  9. Xellium Active Member

    Well I could tell you what your Conj priority is, and I can tell you what your eth priority is but I can't for sure tell you how those mesh together.
    I have done the math for them both sepeatery but not together.

    From looking parses from Conjures I know, I think your swarm pets and crystal blast are very near the top, and maybe above most asensions.

    For eth it's Assassin, Implosion, cascading force, focused blast, Levin bolt. Assassin should always be saved for fervor proc. Fast casting classes should get some good damage out of feedback loop.
    Ascension should be a large chunk of your overall dps don't overlook them.

    I can post my conj priority results when I get home if you like.
    Sigrdrifa likes this.
  10. Sigrdrifa Well-Known Member

    Be interested to see them!
  11. Mark John Member

    Not even close, and you know it. I have an alt Warlock with 88k pot that out-DPSes main Conj at 103k pot in everything but single target, where it is fairly close. AE is not even close.

    Once you subtract the ascensions, the Conj has a pet and swarm pets (add in soulburn) that taken together will not even get close to Cataclysm. Then add Apocolypse, etc.

    Necros are doing somewhat better than Conj because they are less dependent on epic pet and have superior swarm pets. Basic problem for Conj is the epic pet is not scaling with potency and they lack big damage spells that favorably scale with potency. Conj was doing great, competing for leading parses when average raid potency was 85k or so. At 100 to 105k they recede.
  12. Xellium Active Member

    Idk, I know some seriously good Conjurors who can keep up with my 107k pot warlock.
  13. Xellium Active Member

  14. Mark John Member

    Possible under certain conditions. Largely when the fight is short, few or no adds, and dominated by ascensions. Then with roughly equivalent ascension levels, potency, fervor, it comes down to who got the ascension combos.

    On any encounter where the ascensions are parsing about equally, you are going to dominate, especially if there are multiple targets. The reason is that Conj has no buttons to push that will rival cataclysm and apocalypse.

    Last xpac and early in this xpac i was always competitive for raid top parse. Sometimes not, but usually within 10-15% depending on ascension combos largely even when not top dps on a given encounter. Now against the same players I am way down on the parse. It is virtually impossible for me to lead a parse that is not dominated by ascension combos (say in heroic content...i might beat you). Looking at those raid parses I can see why. There was apparently a decision made to limit the % of the parse of the epic pet, so that that pet is scaling poorly with potency. That means more reliance on spells. So just as an example, if Rift is hitting for near 100 million and Conj compatible AE is hitting for 10 million (tooltip values scaling with potency) then increases in potency are going to strongly favor the class that has the larger damaging spells. Yes there is more to it, cast times and recast times, but these spells are comparable and cast/recast times are not changing/scaling with potency where the damage is. That means if the pet is not keeping up as a % of total parse, Conj has no chance as potency increases. That is why I could lead parses when potency was much lower, and pet was doing more, and with increased average potency no longer can. The more my potency goes up, the lower my parse becomes compared with other T1 with equivalent potency...of course not counting ascensions.
  15. Xellium Active Member

    I promise you that Conj can compete and is not handicapped.
    Multiple Conj I know can lay the smack down and win any parse and/or come very close on every fight.
    True story.

    No idea about pet damage, I just know they can kick but.
  16. Vogie Active Member

    That's the funny thing, I said it because I KNOW it. Top end Conjy's know how to parse and I know a Necro or two that are also holding their own. The classic just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist scenario. Yes Warlocks are easy mode dps but that doesn't mean there are classes that can't beat them. I know a few Rangers that blow Warlocks away in fact both warlocks posting in this channel :) on T3 fights too where they aren't 45second parses. Rumor also has it that Assassins are beastmode :)

    There are a lot of people giving misinformation in the majority of threads in here, one must be careful on who to believe :)
    rutro likes this.
  17. Mark John Member

    Right. Necros are doing somewhat better than Conj imo. But please name the Conj that outparses a top warlock using class abilities (again not ascensions).

    When cataclysm and apocalypse are parsing in the billions, please demonstrate the conj ability that does, say 1/10 of those. And what Conj abilities are they casting to compete?
    rutro likes this.
  18. Mark John Member

    There are a lot of people giving misinformation in the majority of threads in here, one must be careful on who to believe :)[/quote]

    And if that was aimed at me, I would appreciate you indicating what I said is incorrect from a numerical perspective (not an 'I KNOW a Conj' argument).

    You also know how damage scales with potency. It is common sense that spells that do 10x the damage of another spell, even regardless of class, are going to scale better with potency given that cast/recast times will remain fixed.

    The Conj pet, a monster last xpac, is scaling poorly with potency, this may have been a deliberate decision or adjustment, but I also have hundreds of parses from last year to understand that as well.

    I also have dozens of parses from last xpac and earlier in this xpac where I was far more competitive. My DPS has gone up considerably, but the dps of other classes has skyrocketed.

    It could well be that I am just a poor Conj, if so I degenerated from a good Conj. Maybe I am missing something and not optimizing my dps currently? (not taliking about ascensions/combos here). So what spells am I now failing to optimize to get to half of your parse?
  19. Vogie Active Member

    Schwangx, Vuldanis, there's one in Covenant too that parses very well as I'm sure there are even more that I don't know about. They may not beat a warlock EVERY parse but they are competitive within a bill sometimes even less. Every T1 class has tools at their disposal outside of Ascensions. Ranger often will have Makeshift arrows and Dagger storm parse in the billions those aren't Ascensions . . .

    I'm not here to tell you how to play your class frankly I can barely play my own, I'm just telling you that there are classes of your type out there that are very competitive with Warlocks and Rangers. Believe me or not I don't really care I have seen it so I can tell you they exist.
  20. Mark John Member

    Not exactly what I asked. I do not know Vuldanis, and nothing about Bhow in Cov, but I have Schwangx on many. many parses. I am not going to say anything further about an individual in a public forum.

    At any rate that is not what I asked. I was asking, from a numerical point of view, per list provided by Xelium, and discounting ascensions, which Conj abilities the good Conjs are casting to compete with Cataclysm, Apocalypse, Nethervoid, etc to compete?

    I'd like to know because i have degenerated from a good conj to fair/mediocre dps and for the life of me can't find a non-ascension set of spells to compete in a COMPETITIVE raid parse. yes there are warlocks I can outparse. And also every Conj that I know of and will not demonstrate that publicly either.

    Perhaps you are not best poised to answer this question, but Xellium is in Cov, so he has access to parses which could answer that question.

    The list is fine, Elemental Blast may be the most efficient spell to cast, but it doesn't come up often enough, even with resets to dominate a parse. And to be clear I am referring to top-end, T3 content, not T1 stuff that good guilds destroy in 20s minus scripting.

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