Adornment solvents: How would they affect our Business? Should we oppose them?

The general expense of adornments helps hold them back from being a mass-market product across all tiers and play styles.One thing that might help with this, could be the introduction of EQ1 style solvents where the adornment would be cleanly separated from the equipment, free to reuse. Assuming the adornment itself becomes no-trade(attuned) after it's used, how exactly would this affect our business?Would the new customers offset the loss of old, repeat customers?

[p]Thats actually a good question.[/p][p]I have been eling a few adornments to some top end (very top end) raiders reciently. Adornments that I was the only one selling, and that I would consider overpriced due to the fact that no one else was selling them. I would not have sold these adornments had these people been able to remove adornments from their gear to re-apply to upgrades.[/p][p]That said, I have also spent a LOT of money on adornments for my own upgrades, and something like this would have saved me money.[/p][p]I guess the adventurer in me would like it, the crafter would not, so I am kinda impartial.[/p]

[p]I think I'd be opposed to it, for the same reason I'd be opposed to unattuning gear. While I do not think it is the best model for item decayance, it is the one they have chosen so it should be universal. Once an item is applied, it should remain attached and unreusable.[/p]

Although, the quality of the adornment should change what the item can be transmuted into. So if I apply a fabled adornment to a treasured item, it should transmute like a fabled item into a mana vial or infusion.

[p]Yes, I think the idea has merit. If I understand you correctly the solvent would allow you to remove the adornment from an item and return it to your inventory as a No-Trade item. [/p][p]I can see definite positives to this for all involved. Recently Domino was asking about Consumable goods for all crafting classes. Why not spread the solvents to those crafting classes. The Sages would make the solvents to remove the adornments they make, Carpenters could make the solvents to remove their adornments, etc.[/p][p]Adventurers could then readorn their gear based on the adornment stats for prepared raids, etc. I have always thought it was a little silly to say that I take the backing off my item and save it for later use but that I had to stick another backing on top of the first which destroyed the first...[/p][p]And the cost of adornments has gotten pricey. I am not about to pay 2-3P for an adornment that I am going to use this week and then destroy it next week and pay another 2-3P for a different adornment because I would like different resists.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

[p]I agree that a solvent for removing and reusing adornments could be good things. [/p][p] The materials for any adornment are extremely costly, so if I make one I don't have the heart to charge much profit. Essentially, I make adornments for tips. But if the solvent was made out of non-rare materials (even the imbuing items, give every class a use for them) we could actually put a bit of profit into them. [/p]

[p]More thought on this - if each class had a solvent for their adornment type it would mean you needed to keep like 15 solvents on hand to remove your adornments for later use. Hmmmm.....just doesnt seem right to only give the solvents to the Alchemist to make though.[/p]

[p]As an adventurer and crafter both, I say no solvents. [/p][p]On the adventure side, transmuting no trade fabled is a good thing since the chance of a mana even if someone does not get a fabled or legendary equip drop they need is an incentive for casual players to raid more then just quests and gear. It make the raid not seem as useless when nothing else drops for the players that have been lucky with thier class equip drops too. [/p][p]On the tradeskill side, it would mean less business for the adornment makers.[/p][p]The idea of making an item with a fabled or legendary adornment on it transmuting like a fabled or legendary piece of equipment has merit though. [/p]

What does transmuting a fabled no-trade item have to do with the use of solvents? You can still transmute any item you want to. The solvents would merely allow you to remove adornments from your current gear and put the adornment into your inventory for use later so you could put a different adornment on your gear currently. i.e. switch vs mental stat for an adornment which added vs noxious....

[p] I think soon adornments will also drop as loot items just like every other crafted item has a better loot drop. This will make the crafted prices drop.[/p][p]Even though expensive, I think the adornments are a type of consumable. Adornments go along with the soe "attune it and you own it forever" policy.[/p][p] course except when they unattuned/unadorned those changed adornments and reinbursed people many many plats.[/p]

The concern is that when one puts a new adornment on an item, the value of the old one is fully lost. Crafters are afraid their "consumable" item would become reusable and thus flood the market with used adornments to the point no one can make one to compete. So... How about a compromise of sorts, a solvent that removes the adornment and breaks it down into a -portion- of the minimum number of components used to make it. An example: An imaginary adornment requires a minimum of 1 powder and 3 fragments (the number of powders and/or fragments in the recipe minus the max number returned). With a solvent made by the crafter class of -that- adornment type, the adventurer applies the solvent like he would a new adornment (click on the solvent, click on the item to be lifted). The adornment is melted and the person removing the adornment gets back 1 powder and 1 fragment. He can then use those components to get a new adornment made.

This was addressed earlier in the thread by making the removed adornments "No-Trade". This makes it so once you buy an adornment and use it, it belongs to only you forever (much like attuning). There would be no flooding of the markets with used adornments.

[p]The two main problems I see with making these adornments no-trade are the fact that this will require some from of change to adornments, and that it does not help crafters at all.[/p][p]If they were to do this in a manner where the removed adornments are no-trade, they would need to make a second copy of every adornment in the game, but with a no-trade flag (they are trying to free up database space, not use more!). The only ways I can see to get around that are by making all adornments no-trade, or by retooling every adornment in the game to be an attuneable item, which may or may not be a massive task.[/p][p]Rijacki's idea deals with both of these issues. There would be no need for any addition or change to the current adornment database, and it would provide crafters with more customers wanting adornments, since they would be able to get some of the components back.[/p][p]This may have the potential to make some of the less powerful adornments, like the resist ones, in to true consumables, where an adventurer would use a solvent on an adornmet on the item, then apply a resist adornment for the specific fight that needs it (although, the game mechanics\encounters would need to change to make resists useful, and the actual amount of resist provided on these would need to be incrased. but that is a topic for two totally different theads). [/p]

[p] You are correct, from a database and coding perspective, the simplest solution would be to flag all adornments as Attunable. That in itself would handle all the issues with adornment re-use after it was removed witha solvent. Modifying the code and adding additional database fields to facilitate the change to no-Trade and even the additional components suggestion will probably prohibit this from being done.[/p][p]If we can agree to have all adornments changed to Attunable and create a solvent to allow their removal (we know they have this already as they allowed us to snap them off once before) we might be able to get this enacted in somewhat short order.[/p][p]Domino - would this be possible if done in this fashion?[/p][p]The other caveat to this is: where there be only one solvent or will each type of adornment have its own solvent?[/p]

Allowing them to be removed will kill the market for adornments, even if made no-trade. That would be a bad idea for every crafter out there.

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:

[p] I disagree, as a Transmuter and 70 Sage I see little repeat business for the same adornments from the same players anyway.[/p][p]Having a solvent recipe however would allow those customers to come back and buy something consumable from me AND they could purchase additional adornments from me for different stats usage. Currently, they choose the adornment that makes the most sense to be used most of the time and thats it. If they has a solvent they could use to remove the adornment, replace it with another one, rinse and repeat - it gives them a reason to buy all the adornments I make and keep them in their toolkit as well as the solvent. Now they can use the adornments which make the most sense based on the mobs they are hunting and get to maximise their investment in the adornments. Crafters will get to sell potentially more adornments and now a solvent.[/p][p]How is this a bad idea for every crafter out there? [/p]

But that doesn't address the adventurer's first concern, that of recouping some of his costs/expenses in obtaining that adornment that he can't trade and, most likely, doesn't need. Unless you have more than one set of gear (like raiders) and put lesser adornments into the secondary gear (which would have, in the case of many raiders, its own adornment to remove), a No Trade adornment would be 100% worthless and basically pointless. Having a solvent break an adornment down into -some- of the components used to make it would give the adventurer a way to recoup costs, tradeskillers more components to work with, and, hopefully, more reason for an adventurer to go back to a tradeskiller to get another adornment made. Database issues aside (which I didn't think about, but is a good argument, too), it's a win/win proposition that allows re-use in a way that really doesn't effect anyone negatively (except maybe transmuters selling components for outrageous sums). If a solvent had a 75% chance to return the primary component and a 50% chance to return up to 50% of the other components, in my opinion, it would be welcomed by nearly everyone.

My concern was with trying to maintain much of the market status quo while expanding the market of adornments to more reluctant buyers who are always waiting for that perfect drop. The expense issue is partially addressed here but, not enough to massively impact the market to me. When I suggested the adornment return idea, I was also thinking of an eventual point where people would buy stat and resist adorns to swap out as needed. Since the adorn would always be there, even the current dedicated buyers would purchase situational adorns since their larger investment wouldn't poof. I was also thinking of how the development mindset might change in a dynamic that better facilitates situational equipment vs. "the best all 'round". I foresee options like AE avoid/mitigation adorns, ward procs vs heal vs regen procs, (melee)deaggro procs vs damage procs... Adorns are just getting started in their potential variety but, lacking options, each customer still represents one sale per slot typically.Even in our current setup we have DPS vs proc adorns that have greatly varying values depending on group setup and current equipment;the ability to swap on the fly could be a great boon to players lacking steady groups or otherwise varying circumstance. Returning the adornment itself seems to expand the market and it's potential in these scenarios.

[p]The ability to recover a no-trade adorn might create more sales when the level cap is raised. Currently many adventurers have invested in adorning equipment earned during this tier. When the level cap is raised, adventurers will have to decide to either make due with their adorned equipment from tier seven or purchase master crafted at level 72 to use until they get better drops. If their old adorn can be reused on the new equipment, then the relative value of the new equipment is better. This would allow them to seprate the cost of upgrading equipment and the cost of upgrading adornments. Sales of tier eight adorns would be impacted by those that chose to reuse tier seven adorns.[/p]

[p]Without a solvent to remove the adornment for use in another piece I simply won't buy an expensive adornment. They aren't worth the money. At least in EQ1 I could buy a solvent and remove the adornment and reuse it on another piece of equipment. I frequently move adornments around or took them off one piece and put them on another. [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]