WARRIORS - Make us stronger!

And you do tank better. Content shifted and the war tanking advantage got reigned in. It isn't a fault in your class if they so desire to up mob dps wars will once again shine it was highly noticible all through underfoot and again in voa. The devs have opted to forego that kind of content design. But it doesn't mean that wars aren't the best damage absorbing class. The devs have just started tuning all content toward the level that allows knights to also tank.

Hybrid no longer means half of a parent class but rather end/spell using classes.

I didn't say knights should do more dps and if you can't do more dps than knights. The justification isn't we should be better than them because parent... Herp. But a valid and logical argument to where the line of balance should be. You will never again have competitive dps with dps classes (hi zerker class) that role is now filled by everyone non priest/tank. If you need more dps good luck. If you are bitter that content doesn't dictate putting your name in lights and so vital that raids and groups sit in the lobby if you aren't around to play hero then there is nothing left to discuss.

My viewpoint on utility is one that makes the war class more fun and desirable. I guess you could always cross your fingers/toes/legs and eyes in hopes the devs ramp up content to make war advantages shine or you could evolve with the fame instead of cling to 15 yr old class descriptions.

We're the lowest dps tanks, and have the lowest utility too shiftie.

We are also the best raid tanks - the most elite of top end guilds could get by with knights, but for the most part it's warriors.

Although step outside of that very very small role of raid tank and a pet tanks better. Yay. I have a role as a raid warrior. I feel for the group geared warrior who has a pet from all 3 pet classes out tanking him. And while we aren't there yet, seeing those parses my job may be in danger too.

Nice smoke-screen about parent classes.

The raw facts are:

- Warriors only have an incredible narrow role that has been eroded to a sliver of what it once was: raid tanking.

- Warriors require way more support to tank longer than their riposte disc; in fact, I think that is perfectly fine -- what surprises me more is the fact that Knights donot require this support any more, or far less so. Where is the game where a healer was a requirement for any tank in any group? It disappeared around SoD I think and got worse in the following expansions due to the way healing abilities just keep getting upgraded and exponentially amplified.

The problem therefore is: we suck at the same role compared to the other tanks, who can perform it with a fraction of the support. Donot think this has escaped the notice of anyone playing EQ when forming a group or getting a replacement.

- Warriors do pathetic burn DPS (typical 1 to 3 minute stuff). With the same buffs (no bard), same group, it is impossible to currently beat our "warrior-inspired" brethren on a burn. Infact, Warriors have trouble beating anyone on a burn, unless its a Cleric or a Shaman. If you parse regularely like me, this pattern cannot escape you.

- Sustained DPS is slightly better, but suffers from the fact that we are a one-trick pony. If our not-hybrid-but-a-class-in-their-own-right friends switch to their 2H we're again at the bottom of the barrel.

I'm sorry, but this is not solved by just "rounding out the class". Warriors either need to do way more DPS to compensate for the extra support they need (compensating for the loss of DPS slots), or they need to be upgraded to require as little support as the other tanks. To be honest, I think it should be both, as tanking will be on par then and the extra DPS offered by Warriors will nicely compensate for the utility we donot have.

Not to be a Debbie downer, but what makes us think that by starting another "Warrior upgrade" thread is going to do anything but make us feel better because we got to vent? We had a 24 page thread that has pretty much been ignored for the last 2 months and polite requests for any type of update (I would settle for a "still in the works, patience") have received nothing but silence.

On a side note, I like some of these suggestions. Seems most of us warriors think the same way... survivability.

If you're going to quote something I wrote in a different thread then you should at least try to put it into some sort of context, as well as make an actual point of your own in the process.

I thought the point was obvious, until Shiftie stated he did not see a point. I thought hmmm Knights might not get the point, so I followed up with a post within an hour stating the point clearly. BB got the point though .

Ok so this is starting to turn into a tank class vs tank class discussion:
Warrior > Shadowknight / Paladin mitigation
Shadowknight / Paladin > Warrior dps
Shadowknight / Paladin > Warrior utility (ie FD, Paci, healing, snaring, group buffs, ect ..... aa mounts!! )
Shadowknight / Paladin > Warrior survivability (due to combining mitigation and utility)

Warriors should be far superior to paly/sk in melee mitigation and do.
Warriors should be far superior to paly/sk in melee dps but do not.
Paly/Sk should be far superior to warrior in utilities and do.

The reason Sk/Paly are desired more in the group game, as I'm told but not witnessed, is because of there ability to survive on self abilities alone. Paly/Sk are their own patch healers. Along with utilities and equal or superior to warrior dps. If this were true why wouldn't they be more desired over a warrior?

The fact that Paly/Sk have shifted so far towards the warrior parent class is the reason warriors are falling behind. Paly/Sk are so far away from cleric and necro I would probably put it at 85% warrior 15% cleric / necro. Yes shiftie that is why you haven't seen a gain in cleric abilities for the last 20-30 levels. That Is when the shift began to your fellow paladin and sks became more focused on being warriors then clerics and necros. To be honest from a EQ perspective that pretty much had to happen. But the byproduct of that is the warrior class getting stiffed in a few very important areas.

So to the OP Malhachite: I hear ya. I just hope the devs do to.
and to DCPD158: I hear you too.....wish the devs could throw us a few info bones

In Shiftie's world, that will indeed happen once the 2hander changes go through.

In 2010-11, you made a beta buffed warrior and saw how high warrior auto attack DPS was. Then you saw a 54k DPS parse. You put the two together and concluded ISS was OP, must be nerfed, and warriors should continue to do crap DPS until they support for Shiftie's idea of a warrior verison of paladin proc AA's since auto attack DPS is evil but proc DPS isn't.

But that never was the case. On those 50-55k DPS lilith parses, only 35-40k DPS was from S&B. The bulk of the remaining 10-15k DPS was from 2hand DPS, specifically opp/vital strikes. So contrary to your belief warriors don't have activated DPS, 25-30% of the very parses you cited to get ISS nerfed had nothing to do with ISS, and were attributable to activated DPS -- the very thing you still don't believe warriors even have.

Warriors 35-40s burns are far more reliant on activated from 2hander DPS today. Strikes can now account for 40-50% of our DPS on short burns.

I can do 75-80k DPS w/o aDPS, with 50% of that coming from strikes. With aDPS, I could probably boost that to 100k. And if the 2hander changes boost strikes, that could very well be boosted to DPS class-levels.

The variance of strike DPS is enormous. It's far less reliable than even nukes. The difference between a min and a max strike is more than 10x. I can have the same exact conditions as my 75k+ DPS parses and do 45k DPS. It's 100% the luck of high rolls + crits on 3x heroic blade strikes and 1 vital strike.

So I won't be surprised if the 2hander changes go in, one warrior does 175k DPS, someone as clueless about warriors as Shiftie cites that to get us nerf, and that all will happen while warriors are really doing 60k DPS sans strikes.

I don't know what world you live in. I didn't get anything nerfed.

If vital strike is so streaky and unreliable and your max dps revolves around it then perhaps the war class might try to get it balanced so other things can flourish. But that isn't the war mo... All about getting the cake and eating it too.

And I thought you were posting in an effort to help the warrior class. Kind of ironic that a class who can tank without a merc healer is claiming a tank that can't survive without one wants to have their cake and eat it too.

So now we are talking about healing? Pick a topic and stay on it.

I am posting to help or at least I try to. The problem is that most take offense to it because of a class title despite the possibility that the feedback is constructive. I keep being accused of getting wars nerfed which I find funny. The iss nerf and passive melee nerf to wars came about because of rogues posting and sending parses to devs. Participating in a forum discussion =|= getting a class nerfed.

If data is presented showing an imbalance (see the recent pet parses) the only time that is percieved as not ok is when you have something to hide. The parse I posted for dps was used in an attempt to get pals nerfed two years ago. Granted it included 7th which happens to stack perfectly with pal discs. The problem is that not everyone has 7th so should the whole class suffer (by a nerf to base discs)? I should think not. But I was in favor of having 7th adjusted to not stack. I said as much in beta. Furthermore the paladins who did parsing in beta prior to that like myself were not allowed access to end game weaponry and the dps levels got shipped live out of proportion. So don't go posting snippets of information without the context because you weren't around for the conversation. You have no idea what You are talking about. I don't care if you find it odd... You missed the boat on those conversations two years ago. And the only reason I brought it up recently was to show the amplification of raw dmg on a weapon under a burn scenario.

My point about the cake was that people want max dps to be tuned without factoring in vital or adps. You can't just ignore it. Max includes everything including the kitchen sink it doesn't exclude the abilities you try to keep hidden behind your back.


If content doesn't require a healer for knights than that is the contents fault. Look at plane of war, all content should be built like it. This is a multiplayer game and I'm not in favor of eliminating healers in group content. Retune content first and if it must happen retune knight healing second.

The jealousy in recent threads isn't constructive. It also isn't getting anywhere.

So does max dps include a wizard merc over a healer merc?

Lolwut?

Now we are talking about mercs?

Think your trying to hard shiftie. This thread was never meant to be conducive to real conversation, but more venting.

I am closing this thread now. Please stay on track.