Hi all, Just a few questions. Assume I am talking about normal pulls (non-raid) and that the tanks are 100-105 group geared (nonTDS stuff). (mostly for lvl 105 tanks) 1. Warrior tanking - Dual Wield over 1h + shield. Whats the general consensus on this, especially on named/boss fights? On trash mobs I'm not too worried about it but a tank friend says that he cannot hold aggro with a shield and this doesn't seem right to me. Is there a general accepted "rule" for warrior tanking with it comes to using a shield or not? I understand trash mobs may not always hit that hard, but when doing TDS progression, they start hitting a bit harder and I'm finding it increasingly difficult to heal him when on my healer. Seems about to mitigate damage as well as a tank merc and its definitely not an issue with his gear. 2. Another warrior tanking question - I hear people talking about warrior disc rotations but I am having a hard time finding an actual list of what to do on normal pulls, bosses/nameds, etc. I don't have any problems staying alive when I am on my tank but I would rather be using the "correct" combo of disc/AAs, if there is such a thing. Is there a list somewhere or a forum post I can find regarding this that is accurate and up-to-date? 3. Warrior tanking again - Incite or Shield Topple as a general rule of thumb? I like the aggro from Incite but the mitigation from Shield Topple seems much more helpful on the whole as I rarely have aggro issues. 4. Tanking while on a mount - is this just a preference? I do it on my warrior and someone said I was dumb for using a mount as a tank. I didn't understand why, seeing as the mob pushback from melee seems non-existent while on a mount and I don't have to remember to sit to gain endurance. I don't lose aggro ever so its not causing a problem there and I always turn the mobs back to the group and shrink myself to the max....so is there a reason I should not be using a mount in a normal group situation? Sorry for the numerous questions. Its hard to find any recent posts about such things and I don't like relying on information from 2010 as I have no clue how accurate that is at this point in the game. Thanks in advance.
This is true before level 96/100. Krondal's Roar and Phantom Aggressor are game changers in terms of agro. That's a bit more complicated as we have a lot of abilities with assorted durations/timers/stacking issues. I imagine this part of the conversation can dominate an entire thread, maybe get back to this one later. Agro vs DPS is what you're choosing here. It limits your ability to re-position quickly.
Take all answers as a raid geared warrior, who tends to pull 2-6 on average in group content. I havn't played a group geared warrior in a while, so some things i consider trivial could be challenging. 1. You're tanking. Use a shield. You have plenty of aggro buttons and maybe a rune aug in your weapon for aggro. If you have a badass healer behind you and your dps actually matters, consider 2h proficiency and a big 2her. Otherwise, stick to tanking. 2. Flash of anger, it's a 6 second weapon shield - fast reuse. Lets you hit your ae and be safe while the healer gets settled. Not tanking a raid boss? No time to bleed is pretty awesome too. Resplendent glory, hold the line, brace for impact, various clickies are all useful. Warlords tenacity. It's short term and a long refresh, but if it's going bad, or you expect a rough fight, an extra 32k hp's is pretty sweet. Fortitude and Last stand. If you need info about those 2 buttons, you need serious help. 3. Shield topple is interesting, but a general rule of thumb is aggro > all. That said with other tools it shouldn't matter (projection is crazy aggro) so topple away. 4. Mounts are a preference. They potentially make positioning difficult (but have other bonus's like lack of push). Personally I don't use them.
Firstly, thanks for all of the answers. As far as the Dual Wield issue, I'm really looking to see what can be done in terms of his mitigation. He never has Defensive Proficiency up. He said even though the buff is on (with 1h and shield), it doesn't do anything if he's Dual Wielding so he never uses it. I can keep him alive most of the time but on named fights on Brother's Island, he can drop 60% hps on a bad round and I find he tanks the nameds about the same as a tank merc, which just doesn't seem right at all. I usually have to burn 3-4 CDs at a time to keep him alive. Fair enough, thanks. DPS from shield topple? Its only a couple hundred hps in damage right? I ask because when I look at people's macros from even just a few months ago, nearly all have Shield Topple and I'm trying to figure out the actual advantage other than shorter CD and minor damage being dealt. The 40% mitigation buff only applies to the max damage absorbed, no? I guess I am looking to see if there's a tangible benefit to Shield Topple over Incite because to me it doesn't really look like Shield Topple is worth using over Incite at all. The damage absorption pales in comparison unless I am missing something? I guess I haven't encountered this problem yet as I mostly just run Gribble HAs. In the rare events an add gets on us and I am not on it before it actually gets to us, I can just Grappling Strike it and usually don't need to move at all. I guess I don't get why people are calling me stupid about it but thats ok, I can just laugh at them and carry on. Thanks again for the replies, greatly appreciate it.
Thanks for the answers. I guess my only other question at this point is if my friend decides to continue to Dual Wield over everything else, is there a way for Defensive Proficiency to work or not on him? That extra mitigation really stands out and now that we have gotten to Dregmar, I'm worried about the damage he'll be taking from some of this stuff. 2 mobs in CoES on him and I'd have to use at least 2 discs to keep him from dying. Heals alone would not keep him up. Thanks again.
quite frankly if u have trouble keeping him alive. he needs to use a shield and defensive proff. or u gonna struggle the whole way thru everything the debate of topple vs incite line back at them lvls the topple was better thats no longer true as the absorb is way fallen off from when it was a decent competetor Shield Topple Warrior (83) Slot 1:2H Slash Attack for 246 with 10000% Accuracy Mod Recourse: Bracing Stance Slot 1:Absorb Melee Damage: 40%, Total: 413 Max Hits:2 Insult Warrior (103) Slot 1:Increase Hate by 1 Hate Override:10379 Recourse: Insult Recourse Slot 3:Absorb Melee Damage: 50%, Total: 8398 Max Hits: 2 if your freind is hard to keep alive and well quite frankly anytime his tanking somethign and he needs to choose he should be useing Insult
Proficiency generally needs to match what he's using weapon-wise. There's a Dual-Wield version also, but like Rep said if he's having issues staying alive, he should be using 1H+Shield+DefProf. Assuming this Warrior is 100+ your problem probably stems from him doing something wrong from an agro perspective, or your group having so much DPS that they're pulling faster than his agro abilities can refresh. Mitigation is not the point of those discs - the recourse only lasts 2 hits.
the mitigation is a point cuz its dmg not taken. and if his haveing issues staying alive his job is to take a little dmg as humanly possible
If he wants to dual wield, then thats fine. But if he can use Defensive Proficiency and it will work while he is dual wielding, then I can probably convince him to at least use that over DW prof. He doesn't see the issue as much because he never has to heal himself. He is really damn squishy. The mitigation from Defensive Prof should be plenty for me to keep him up easier if he is just going to be dead set against using a shield. So I guess my question on that, at this point, is if he uses a 1h+shield to cast Defensive Proficiency then switches out the shield for another 1h so he can dual wield, will the Defensive Proficiency still affect him or does it not at that point because he's no longer using a shield? The buff stays on but he says since he isn't using 1h+ shield, it doesn't actually affect mitigation. I have no clue if that is the case or not. Thanks for the answers from everyone in the thread so far. I'm not trying to convince my friend to change how he plays, I just want to understand some mechanics and try and make things easier so we don't have to worry about him dying so much.
7: Decrease Dual Wield by 1000% Nope. It would make is so that he doesn't hit with the off-hand which defeats the purpose of having one imo. If he wants to DW, have him use DW proficiency.
Yeah he's already doing that. The problem is his damage mitigation is in the crapper. I'm trying to find a compromise here =P
In any non-trivial content, 1h-shield-Defensive Proficiency. If there's a shabby healer who has nothing better to do with their life and plenty of mana (*ahem* a mercenary), then Dual-Wield Proficiency can come off the shelf. Any player healer can divert "extra" healing time to dps time and blow away the dps difference of the warrior going dual but taking additional damage. In trivial content, Two-handed Proficiency converts the warrior to captain of the Junior Berserker Brigade. Tanking with a shield first became feasible with Improved Shield Specialist AA in Seeds of Discord Expansion, lv85. Since that time, I've had one agro issue, it was specifically versus good beastlords and specifically during Underfoot. No other classes, and no other times. If your friend can't hold agro and hold a shield at the same time, he's doing something wrong, or likely not doing something at all. Discs/abilities, you just make a line out of the things you have available, and keep 'something' going all the time to lower overall damage. The only biggies that it's rarely worth trotting out in group content are Warlord's Tenacity and Final Stand. The former just deepens the hp pool, which does ~nothing to help a single healer keep you alive unless there's a potential for one-shotting. The latter overwrites Defensive Proficiency for questionable benefit. It can combo with Dual-Wield if you're feeling squirrely, but giving up 500ac & shield blocks when taking damage matters is a questionable plan. Topple almost all the time, since only rare groups will pull fast enough for some other large agro ability not to be ready. I don't ever tank on a mount. Besides the loss of mobility, Battle Leap jumps you right off it and you should be keeping that ability grayed out all the time.
Hmm it seems our experiences and versions of history are quite a bit different. I followed this very closely as a group Warrior because agro was always a major problem for me. When content forced group Warriors to use shields at a cost of ~35-40% of our swing/proc agro, it was really a dark time. There were no changes to Shield agro until a good ways through House of Thule (90). ISS actually started out as a damage mod and went through a couple iterations because they couldn't make it work as intended during Beta. Or, ever, for that matter, because the description is still wrong to this day >< However if you're saying you didn't have agro issues at level 85 it begs the question whether you raid or group geared back in those days? Group vs Raid Warriors were night and day from an agro perspective for most of EQ. It wasn't until RoF when the bulk of our sustainable agro was moved to activated abilities that things got better on the grouping side. Also, expansion history for the record... Seeds of Destruction - 2008 October 21, Max lvl 85 Underfoot - 2009 December 15, Max lvl 85 House of Thule - 2010 October 12, Max lvl 90
I had a raid primary across those expansions, but not always the best at each step. I went from Power-Infusted Steamcleaver to The Keen Edge of Discord, jumping over the intermediary weapons, for instance, and never got Underfoot's upgrades. I used the +4 Crystal aug, until I got +6 from Convorteum, instead of a proc, since I found agro to so rarely be an issue.
If your Friend is having issues with Sword and Board something is wrong. First off if he is using Def Proficiency and then switching to duel wield to maintain the buff, then I would argue that he CAN maintain aggro with sword and board because in that setup his offhand will NEVER swing. All he is doing is losing the mitigation and over cap AC that a shield provides (This alone is your problem of being squishy). By not using a shield and the fact that Softcap AC is so low, he losing somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40% of his mitigation AC (depending on gear) by not using a shield. I made a post in this tread that outlines how and when some of our most used discs for aggro can be used, I sugest you have him read it. https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/how-to-play-a-warrior.215631/ As far as Defensives and survivablity goes, I think you could ask 50 Warriors that question and get 40 answers. The biggest advise that i give to new warriors is put all of your "you being hit" messages into a chat box by its self and watch the hits you are taking and play around with your discs to see what suits you the best, develop your own routine and then once you think you have it ask for advice on tweeks to it. Personally I tend to always run Def Proficiency, with Stout Defense and if things are getting interesting on multiple mob pulls then I will hit No time to bleed. I am also a failry geared raid tank so the group game is pretty easy as far as tanking goes. For your friend he is probably going to find his best survivability with that set up and the use of some other defensives for tougher and named mobs. I am surprised that no one has brought this up yet but if in fact you are going to be using shield topple as a warrior you need to block the recourse for it. The recourse could make you take more damage today than the DPS is good for. Rank 1 block spell 19558 Rank 2 block spell 19559 Rank 3 block spell 19560 Pwnography: made a good post here about stacking up threashold type abilities and how they stack https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/warrior-threshold-ability-stacking.217661/ I also made a thread here that covers much of the same but goes into more of what other classes can stack up on us https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/warrior-absorb-melee-effects.215314
Well, you just hit the nail on the head with my agenda. I was going to see if I could get him to do it then prove to him that he could in fact hold aggro without Dual Wielding. Thanks for the info. The thing is he is not using Defensive Prof - he's dual wielding with DW Prof. So his damage taken is pretty spikey at times, particularly when there are any adds on him. He has a good handle on this from what I have seen. I've talked to him about what he uses and he never has problems holding aggro that I have seen. His "gauge" that he is using is if he can hold aggro on a caster merc on burn. In our groups, I've never seen our normal rogue even come close to pulling aggro from him so I'm not really sure why he's so worried. Yeah I kind of figured. I just wasn't sure if there was a "vanilla" approach like if you hit Suchandsuch Disc use this AA with it, or use these abilities in this order so you can have 100% upkeep on discs or whatever. Thanks for the info and links. Greatly appreciated.
Just for you to have a look at and maybe understand the situation he is putting himself into by using that stance and tanking "challenging" Content. Not really what duel wield was designed for to be honest. [41087] Dual-Wielding Proficiency Restriction: Type 868 Target: Self Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Casting: 0s, Recast: 30s Duration: 06:00:00 (3600 ticks), Extendable: No, Dispelable: Yes 1: Increase Chance to Parry by 30% 2: Decrease Chance to Block by 40% 3: Decrease Chance to Dodge by 40% 4: Increase 1H Blunt Damage v2 by 80% 5: Increase 1H Slash Damage v2 by 80% 6: Increase 1H Pierce Damage v2 by 80% 7: Inhibit Effect: Shield Equip Hate Mod 10: Increase Melee Mitigation by 15% 11: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 1 is 'Hit Damage v2' and < 100 12: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 1 is 'Melee Mitigation' and < 100 Text: You appear more balanced. [41088] Defensive Proficiency Restriction: Type 866 Target: Self Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Casting: 0s, Recast: 30s Duration: 06:00:00 (3600 ticks), Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: Yes 1: Increase Melee Mitigation by 30% 2: Shield Block (15) 3: Decrease 2H Blunt Damage v2 by 99% 4: Decrease 2H Slash Damage v2 by 99% 5: Decrease 2H Pierce Damage v2 by 99% 6: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 1 is 'Hit Damage v2' and < 100 7: Decrease Chance to Dual Wield by 1000% Yes the Mitigation FAR outweighs the increase to Parry %.
If your friend doesn't want to change his way of using defensive proficiency, aka stick to a shield and 1H, and not using DW (really dumb idea), after all info posted in this thread explaining stuff,then we can do nothing for him.
