There's no reason to invite a Wizard or Rogue to your group.

On Oakwynd. I actually have a level 50 Wizard and Rogue too, lol.

The funny part is when I was playing my Wizard, the entire time I felt like the Magicians in my groups were nuking just as good as me but also had a badass pet. Evac is cool, but Druids can do that + a whole lot more. Actually you know what's funny?

When I was playing my Wizard, I felt like Clerics were actually out-nuking me, because we were at Hamlord in Lower Guk (and UR before then) and the Cleric nukes were dramatically faster than Wizard nukes, and got resisted way less. A lot of times Clerics would nuke and kill the mob before my nuke ever finished casting.

Rogues, IDEK where to begin. Your stealth isn't useful before Planes of Power when you finally get SoS, and you don't start to break even with damage on a Monk until you get your PoT dagger, but you also have to spend thousands of platinum keeping your daggers coated in poison, just to be competitive with Monks who can tank, feign death, mend, and pull etc.

Like I genuinely won't invite these classes to my groups, and if someone ask me to join or start a group, and it's a Rogue or Wizard, I just pretend that they didn't message me. I would rather just keep an empty spot, in case a useful class comes online, or even invite a second healer.

My Druid nukes almost as good as my Wizard, no exaggeration, and a Rogue couldn't even solo a Necromancer pet.

And people will say Rangers are bad too, but that's not true. I actually have had several Rangers tank 45-50 for my groups in BNB and Hamlord and had no issues. They were great pullers and held aggro better than anyone, and having track to see what rares are up is super useful in zones like Sol B and LGUK where people regularly call camps they aren't actually at, or vacate camps without telling anyone.

I've never even played a Ranger, but the idea that they are bad is very funny because they are probably one of the best tanks I've grouped with for leveling.

I form nearly every group i've ever been in on Oakwynd due to nobody wanting rangers, and I can vouch on the disdain for wizards lol. On the other hand, I usually go out of my way to recruit rogues - they're permanent DPS with no cooldown recovery. They will lead DPS parses and never need mana


Wizards though? OOFDA.

It's the player mentality and not the class which sucks cause I agree.
Most rogues aren't active enough and assist so damn late or are just half afk, so it's a complete crap shoot
Most wizards are either A. Not using rains to be mana efficient or B. A combination of problems like thinking they have to be above 80% mana at all times, nuking so damn late where it's not even an efficient full nuke, or not even using at least a single spell per mob.

Fully agree on Rangers, they are far better than people joke around about. If they're active and actually press their buttons they can parse well and are consistent ( imagine that ) .... Find a few though that aren't bow bots in classic or constantly just auto attack and sit on full mana all the time. It's the very same for BST's coming up, they are an exceptional class that performs and does well but the player usually is just bad

This.

Quoting for visibility, more people need to be aware. I crushed meters on my ranger (granted, not quite monk w/epic DPS), but a well played ranger, even in classic can do exceptionally well. Add in root CC and other group utility and they can be group gods and even take the place of enchanters. Always keep in mind Archery does not cause any threat, so you can start DPSing on raid targets far earlier, even on pull and never pull threat.

With these classes it's far more about bringing the player over the class. A well played Rogue or Ranger will crush any tier 1 DPS class (other than broken monks w/epics, which even a one eyed amputee flat-earther could top raid parses) if they are attentive and know what they are doing.

You mentioned Mages vs Wizard also, as Litoeon said, Rains are vastly under utilized. On a Wizard they are more mana efficient, and cause less initial threat than nukes, so you can cast it as soon as the mob is in camp as long as you have a tank with a pulse. As far as raid bosses, Wizard nukes come with built in resist modifiers, mages do not, this is HUGE for overall raid damage, but requires forethought and planning, two things that most EQ players lack.

In classic you will see that is the case unless the wizard is using rains to be mana efficient and in the right setting.
Mages are hard to beat in classic due to the overall pet strength in a group setting.

Clerics / Necros are gods of classic/kunark in any undead zone, Chardok groups were always my favorite with 1 ench / 1 druid / 2 necro / 2 cleric - charm pets galore and undead nukes make for easy exp all day.

Rogues are great, when they are actually active but most players do not sit active 24/7 in a group setting. They get overrun by the abundance of monks that are on every new TLP because monks require 0 gear while rogues actually require gear.

I would take wizards all day for "Hole" groups because of the hp difference compared to Lguk/etc.
Rains are the best dps in game when used correctly and they can hit the mob.

Rangers are better than most tanks in classic in my opinion ( besides raid content ).
Played right they are decent dps also.

Agreed with everything except this. Yes, a Ranger can tank, but due to chain instead of plate they get crushed much more often, making them mana sponges for healers. If its threat you're after, a ranger can't be beat, until SKs get their terror line of spells.

I've out tanked a ranger on my mage with the self buff Phantom Plate, as it vastly reduces the amount of crushing hits you take. Rangers are still godly, and can tank very well, but yeah ... you'll be taking a fair amount of extra damage.

The only other thing you said that I disagree with is Monks in classic. Without their epics they are sub-par and most DPS classes should be ashamed to be out parsed by them. Without weapon bonus damage they are severely gimped against any raid targets with high AC, and the 38 delay means that their damage is very spikey, so on short fights it's hit or miss on their damage. This of course changes once Kunark is release and they get their epic and OP disc's. They are still tier 1 in classic, but a well played Mage, Wizard, Rogue, Ranger, Necro should 100% be able to beat them, assuming resists do not overly limit their spells, which is sometimes the case.

Edit: Once a monk gets their BiS weapons in classic its a different story, I am referring to the 95% of monks on TLPs that only ever use bare fists because they are tricked by the insane ratio.

The only content in classic that a ranger should ever have issues tanking is going to be Planes / Lord / Efreeti / Rock Golem / Undead in Hole. Everything else should be a cakewalk, the healing mana consumption would be based on the kill speed which if you have a ranger tanking the DPS of the group should mean that it dies near instantly or within seconds.
I do agree they are squishy to an extent but if you plan on using a ranger tank, you obviously are looking to speed kill based on the agro they generate.

I agree and disagree with the monk portion.
Yes to the epic / delay / etc.
No to the fact that a mage/wiz/rog/rng/necro should beat them 100% of the time.

Monks are consistent and do not rely on mana, so in the end they will put out more dps than the others you listed. In a short turn fight such as trash mobs you are correct they should never win because 1 nuke is equal to like 20s of fight time.. ( guestimate) but casters cannot sustain that dps forever.
Also comes down to the player of each character, as previously stated.

Agreed, 100% was an exaggeration, but most of the time in classic any of those classes if played correctly, taking advantage of FD DoTing, no bow threat, wiz resist modifiers, rog knowing how to drop threat with hide on CD, mage with pet positioning for 100% uptime, etc. Monks in classic should not be top DPSers, the only reason they are on almost every parse in most guilds is because, as I said, anyone can play a monk with zero experience and still be competitive, and most of the raiding community do not know how to take advantage of their classes to the fullest.

This!
Min/Max baby!

You're part of the problem really because the "better" class isn't going to make that much of a difference over your rogue or wizard.

YTA

People who min max their pickup groups to that level like wtf. Maybe I'm just used to playing on live where if you're playing with pugs you kinda just get what you get. If I'm filling a dps slot, anyone who is willing to dps can take it maybe I'll even make a new friend.

In the early expansions Wizards shine on raids. MOTM really holds mages back on raid DPS. It's a rough class to play if you don't support to help you in the group game.

We're not the part of the problem by being efficient with our time in groups, daybreak is the problem not buffing classes that need them in early eras.

No disagreement from me about the relative strengths of the classes.

However, I sort of believe part of being TLP is playing the game the way it once was. Including all the weirdness that existed in decades past (e.g. monks being a great tank, OP enchanters, and rangers being a running joke )

Use a rain in my group and I will boot you after one warning (your wasting the enchanters mana being slightly more efficient and given a choice, I'd rather the enchanter have the mana). This goes for mages as well as wizzys.

Rangers are great tanks in classic assuming they gear for it and know how to play. Rogues aren't bad dps but given a choice id always take a monk over them.

wizards are like bards - excellent if someone is playing them correctly

rogues unfortunately are lacking and very much need a classic era bump in power.

edit: disregard

A decent wizard using rains won't be waking mezzed mobs, they will be using rains on high hp targets that are either in camp solo or far enough away from the other mobs to not wake any that are mezzed.
It's pretty easy to judge this after some practice.

Try being a wizard and casting your highest damaging single target nuke on a 54 golem in the hole and seeing the tiny sliver of health taken off, compared to the use of a rain spell/ And they are VASTLY more mana efficient than single target nukes.

Kicking a wizard for using rain spells therefore seems a little short sighted. Do you kick chanters too if their charmed pets damage them on charm breaks more than once?

If you feel like you are being "Out nuked" by anyone on a wizard, you aren't playing the wizard properly.

If you feel the Rogue is a joke in classic...this is completely accurate. Rogues in classic are useless. They were only good for sneak pulling and CR in 99 and now they are just dead weight on TLPs. Kunark starts the upturn.

Clueless, my wizzy and rogue get invited and reinvited all the time, because i'm skilled and attentitive with my class.

You are playing on a TLP. Not sure what you expected.