Was curious how tank groups were being built in raids and why? I have seen anywhere from 1-3 clerics in tank groups to others only running cleric/druid combos. Have to think with all the new AA, spells, etc over the years that just tossing endless clerics to tanks isn't the only/best way anymore. Would love to hear what others are doing and why.
It really depends on what the guild has and what is available. Synergistically speaking the best would be Clr,War,Pal,SK, Brd, +shm (in my opinion)... but With so many other jobs going on around and often not enough of a certain class on it falls back to simply being Clr,Clr,War,War,war,war.... Though often can mix in any other healer class. (or even a pally).. There really is no right or wrong for it but tank groups aren't as strict as they once were.. Heck at one point in Arx we've had War,War,War,War,War,Clr and still win the event easily.
It will be different in other guilds, but generally our tank groups are created per event by assignment, skill, class capabilities and overall raid composition. I try to always put groups together so that healing and tank assignments will be logical to everyone in each group. Don't cross assign tanks and healers to jobs that we've split for some reason, such as multi-boss events, or boss and adds in the same group. It makes healers jobs harder. Generally, we always assign warriors to boss mobs, and knights to adds. Sometimes if gear/skill is an issue we'll mix them up, and as we gear up, more mixing occurs so people can learn more aspects of the event and remain engaged as we go into long term farm mode. Usually tank groups will have at least 2 healers, 1 cleric and another of whatever doesn't fit into a DPS with pretty synergy (shaman for melee, druid for casters). Some events we go a little over board in set ups due to various skill/turn out compositions etc. For example, we actually go 4 healers, 2 tanks for 1 group in both Neriak 1 and Bixie 2. This way we can totally split out the purple golem (N1) and 2 of the first wasps (B2) and have them as their own self sufficient entity away from the rest of the raid and enough redundancy to stay stable on their own even if unlucky with emotes or something dumb happens. Obviously this is part of the tactics because our overall DPS is low, we have a good number of healers though we use several boxed healers (about 1/3 of the healer force) and those groups have to sustain for extended periods of time. Paladins often get spread around when we need a rampage tank and as a 3rd healer/4th tank.
We run a three tank, three melee, three caster setup. With this, the groups are heavily consolidated into heavy three or four tanks, and two to three cleric types of groups. I think the best way to illustrate it would be via events. Arx 2, for example, is a situation where it may be G1 on Green, G2 on Purple, and Knights in G3 on adds. Rampage is set internally by the last on the tank line (they probably wont be reached anyways), and almost always by a Warrior to leave our paladins free to splash/heal/do knight stuff. You could try to mix in other things, I suppose. Bards are exceptionally helpful if you really need a boost, but it isn't really necessary. Just stack clerics and let them do their thing - that frees up your remaining six groups for aDPS optimization. As tanks, we're fairly low maintenance. No need to get complicated with it unless you really have to - and if you have to, you're probably doing it wrong.
Just to throw in--if you are finding yourselves mixing in druids or shaman into your MT group, you are actually causing yourself more pain in the long run...because those two classes are MUCH better suited to increase your dps and keep your raid itself alive than being in the MT group(s). Shaman epic/leopard is just to good to be taking away from your melee groups, and the coordination of an excellent caster group is best served by having the group black wolf caster in the group (along with the chanter and casters obviously). One of the harder things to get shaman that are used to chain healing the MT with mending to do is to re-adjust their focus: your shaman are your best overall raid ae healers (frozen gift + spiritual surge), so why waste them on your MT when clerics have many more, much faster, better AA'd heals? Your druids should be keeping debuffs on as many mobs as possible while supplementing the ae healing and curing their caster groups. Shaman the same--double hot on your melee group, lep every minute, chain cast frozen gift + spiritual surge are your best general options. Most top tier raiding guilds focus on dps, then healing, with the thought being the best defense is a great offense, or if you look at it another way, the best heal is the one that isn't needed because the mob is dead. Using that strategy, put 2-3 wars, 2 clerics and a paladin (or bard if your tanks are hurting badly for gear-1300 ac, 9% heal increase and increase heal crit chance are nothing to sneeze at when your tackling content higher then you are geared for). The paladin is there mostly to keep the clerics alive, and only supplement heal the MT, although of course they have a variety of skills to bring to the group.
There is no perfect setup because there is such a variation of talent from one player to the next. You can say what would be ideal, if all players were of an elite skillset, but thats pretty unrealistic. I have players of all classes that are rockstars, and then some that are just average, and a few that are below average. Recruiting outstanding people is pretty tough, and you've got to play the hand youre dealt. As a raid leader, you have to be able to evaluate your troops with a critical eye, and then place them in positions that they can be an asset even despite some of their shortcomings. For example, I have a warrior that has fairly strong gear, but seems to get nervous and frustrated easily if put in stressful situations. I know if he is a number 1 or backup guy on a pretty straight forward boss, he will do fine. If I put him on Praetor Vitio though, the raid is going to wipe because the tank cant flip, spin and position the mob right. You also have to deal with the actual 54 people that are online and array them efficiently. I run 2 melee dps groups, 2 caster dps groups, and a 5th dps group that swings depending on what classes actually show up each night. Some nights that 5th dps group is all melee, some nights its all casters, and some its a combination of the two. Yes this means I have 4 tank groups, but the makeup of my guild right now is that we have a ton of tanks and priests, and a bunch of our dps toons have disappeared. Any guilds hurting for clerics want to make a trade for some dps? Some nights I have 6 shammys and 6 bards on, sometimes only 2 of either. If we have a bunch of shammys and bards, they get filtered up to the tank groups and I let my knights that can throw down some solid parses have a bit of fun. If you stack a rockstar knight group with the right support classes, they can surprise you. Ive had a 200k plus dps parse on Dead Hills2. Bottom line, dont get caught up in building groups tailored to the classes represented on raids, tailor them to the talent of your players based on the people that actually log in. My guys finished TDS event 5 at 9th serverwide with what would not be considered anywhere near an ideal raid set up.
The tank groups are the most important groups in a raid, as your raid will either live or die by your warriors for the most part. DPS is moot if the tanks are all dead. Warrior Warrior Cleric Cleric Paladin Bard Warriors and clerics are obvious. More than two clerics is kind of a waste, as there are more than just one tank group usually in a raid... unless your raids are pulling in 9 clerics or something then I could see putting more than two per tank group. Paladins bring thier aura and heals, cures, and Group armor of the inquisitor, which that alone is reason enough to put in the Main tank group. Bards are debatable on weather to put them in the melee dps group or the main tank group. Depends on the fight. I like bards as they can provide me with the greatest AC boost of any other class in game, as well as runes and increasing the heals landing on me and increasing our clerics regen. Thier tanking Spire isn't something to forget either, as well as thier other abilities to help on DPS. Also Selos.
Group Armor of the Inquisitor is group v2. It can be cast on other groups, so the paladin doesn't have to be in the MT group specifically for that. There are of course other reasons for putting a Paladin in the MT group, but you can have your pallies rotate Armor on your MT group for the entire raid if you have enough pallies.
My paladins told me it was group only! Those bums. Well that definitely changes things. In that case I would swap out the paladin for another warrior, allowing the three warriors to Communicate and keep Imparator's Charge up at all times (best spell haste in game) for the clerics in group while paladins keep Group Armor up on the MT from outside the group. This will make quite a difference on Undead Nomia, instead of just one group armor they can keep it rolling.
unfortunatly the imp charge is worthless if u have raid focus plz cleric spell haste , ur better off haveing warrs useing imp command if u dont get group armor or nothing at all cant haste spells more then 50%
It's correct that spell haste is capped at 50%, but many cleric spells are not usually hasted (many have a cast time of < 3s) Benediction of Piety Rk. III Classes: CLR/101 1: Increase Spell Haste by 11% 4: Limit Min Casting Time: 3s Beneficial Haste 30 L105 (Item Focus) 1: Increase Spell Haste by 30% 4: Limit Min Casting Time: 3s Imperator's Charge Classes: WAR/254 1: Increase Spell Haste by 40% 2: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10 3: Increase Melee Haste by 40% Note the lack of cast time restriction on Imperator's Charge. The differences for cleric spells are as follows: Code: Spell Normal Cast Time Imperator's Charge ----- ---------------- ------------------ Remedy 0.5 0.3 Intervention 1.5 0.9 Emblem 0.5 0.3 Renewal 1.8 1.5 Group Heal 2.4 2.0 Splash 1.8 1.5 IoS 2.4 2.2 Syllable 1.8 1.3 Glorious 1.0 0.6
well then thats intresting i was not aware, this is why its such a great comunity everybody has a place to learn even us dumb warrior types of old. However looking at the changes on your list there i see nothing ground breaking in it other then possibly the group heal decrease beeing that the game has evolved in such a manner that a main tank need to be spammed day and night to even have a chance of liveing vs some raid mobs. There is so many duds happening in a spam chain as it is (to why looking at a heal parse only is increably missleading) makeing the spells at best .6 seconds faster i see only at resulting in more dud heals. Now this could possibly have no real implication at all seeing as healer mana currently is close to endless if manged right. but indeed if your getting armor from your paladins its worth casting . if not id go with imp command bigger hp pool to heal is greater then faster heals. getting one rounded can still happen if u dont have enough hp regardless of how fast the heals are. thanks for the info never the less
Paladin Group Armor of Inquisitor has always only been useable on the group the paladin is in only. Highly doubtful this has changed but I'll confirm it on raids tomorrow if no other paladin does(I hope I'm mistaken, but again, highly doubtful). You guys are most likely thinking of a paladins first spire, which is very useful and is good to rotate on the MT group at times if enough paladins in raid. As for optimal MT group, War, War, War, Pal, Bard, Cleric hands down IMO if we're talking everyone has the same skill level and maxing survivability. Can easily drop one of the Wars for another Pal or Cleric depending upon raid composition.
what are tanks? ohhh those things we throw at mobs to keep us dps types alive.....this is kinda a mute point now a days, all depends on what you have to build your raid healers are healers n a good healer can come in any class form sham drood or cleric
Lol, my raid leader is going to give me a serious bonk on the head when I inform him of this considering I was one who told him had to be in same group . Thanks for info Warpeace/Zentara.
Well, if he didn't know it wasn't targettable all along, he may not realize it if you tell him "hey guess what, they made it so I can target this from outside group now". None the wiser *grins*
