So with recent changes Paladin and Warrior agro has caught up to or passed what SKs can generate. In the past we had the terror line and a niche for SKs was the mass Aggro we could generate over any other class. Now other tank classes have gotten abilities that erode that role. I would like to see a change to the terror line to restore some of this balance. Since the sole function of our terror line such as the current Terror of Poira is to generate hate without doing any damage or giving any other benefit to the SK it can be adjusted without affecting game play. The agro generated by the spell should be at least doubled. Rank 3 of that spell gives about 6800 hate. Doubling this up still has it under 14000 hate so less than say the new druid spell that generates hate. So its not like one cast would pull agro back reducing the penalty for the druid getting mana back. But at double what it currently is it would help restore the role that SKs had for so long of being able to lock agro on a mob no matter who was on it. We are not the superior DPS tank anymore. We are not the on par with warriors on hps and AC. Others now have AE hate abilities. SKs need some changes to ensure they have a defined roll. Changing this spell as outlined would be a start in that direction. Since many of our abilities have stagnated with only very minor bumps we do need a few thing shifted to be back in line with other classes. Thanks for your consideration of this.
I wouldn't use what paladins/Warriors do or do not have as my baseline if you want devs to take you seriously. Also Paladins and Warriors passed up SK's awhile ago... its just by such a large margin now its more noticeable. - AE spell hate needs cast time cut in half at the very least and a big increase to hate generated - Something needs to be done with the recast timer of lifetaps, its a bit silly most sk's have to have 4 to 5 lifetaps loaded - In general something needs to be done with the Terror line: We shouldn't have to load 3 expansions worth of hate spells (O and the fact as you go back the hate value drops... so your firing far less potent hate then you could/should be able to) ----possible suggestion: Mix the torrent of ???? line we just had revitalized in with Terrors and then perhaps make 2 extra Terror spells per expac: One that also casts our Bite spell of that expansion and another that reflects the HOT from Bond onto us. - Also refresh time on our AA hate needs to be dropped down to Sub 30 seconds or the hate value needs to be vastly increased - New Insidious Deflection spell line, needs a decent Single target counterpart, its one of our most useful spells given the correct conditions, however if not given those conditions its one of our least useful. Some degree of raid utility is going to be essential going forward... Something to make us viable in more then just 1 role, Especially considering that 1 role isn't always necessary.
Yeah I would like to see a few other changes but was just focusing this purely on our hate generation. I would like to see some of the AE hates have a faster cast time and quicker refresh. If the spells were cut to half a second cast so you can actually cast them with a few mobs hitting you the AA spells might be okay as are. Otherwise cut the recast time on them way down. I think it opens up to many other issues to mix any other capability into the terror line. I just want that one terror spell to do a decent amount of agro given current hate generation by all classes. I compare to warriors and paladins only to show that our agro generation capability has fallen behind other tanks. And has fallen behind what mellee and casters can generate. But you are right today if I want to do what I did a year or two ago I would need to have up multiple terror spells to keep up and just spam them.
What are the spells SK's are using for aggro? What are the numbers looking for them hate wise? Paladins have received no significant increases to aggro in many years. Warriors on the other hand, are a different story. I've never played in an era in EQ where any SK could hang with my Paladin in single target aggro. When talking multiple targets, that's a different story. On my war after recent changes, I'll just say I'm pleasantly pleased with where he stands in raid and grouping heh
lets get back on Topic: What Paladins/Warriors have or do not have is not what we are questioning here. 1) Swarming existed which was the hugest reason we got blocked on numerous things we have asked for years < That has now been solved. 2) In a group with certain DPS classes we cannot possibly hope to hold aggro well enough for them to operate at a level they have become accustomed to operating at. 3) Our Taps are consistently interupted, or we are required to load 3 to 5 of them to effectively self heal through damage (which is our way of mitigating...) This is also a case of loading previous expansions Lifetaps and the further you must go back, the lower the heal recieved. ---- The current recast on lifetaps needs a thorough rethinking 4) We have to use upto 3 expansions old terrors to keep aggro... and as you go back in expansions individual hate generation is less and less, when we need more. If we had 2 to 3 terrors that produced as much hate as Terror of Poira, it wouldn't be as much of a deal. 5) Our AE spell hates are unusable given current push mechanics in melee, To mitigate this we have to load 2 quicker casting BUT Damaging AE hates (1 of which is a 1/4 of the hate of a spell hate...) Since we cannot possibly channel a 1.5s cast AE hate if we already have hate on more then 1 or 2 mobs. < this makes our primary role of grabbing multiple mobs much harder to accomplish and in some cases almost impossible to do efficiently 6) Our passive Self healing has stagnated since VOA (although we saw a minor increase via AA's this content release, its not enough unless problem #3 is fixed) 7) Our Dots are almost useless outside of raid content, and really even on raids most guilds have enough necromancers that no one other then necros should be dotting... So that Takes away a good majority of our "DPS knight" role/ability So yeh some things need to be reworked or fixed.
I'm confused. In the first sentence of the thread it's stated that warrior and paladin aggro has caught up or passed what SK's can generate. I asked what are the spells SK's are using for aggro and the current hate numbers behind them. If it really has fallen behind wars and paladins by such an extreme, wouldn't numbers benefit to share? I don't know many sk's but the few I do have no problem holding aggro over dps classes heh
You seem to think you wrote the thread and the topic. I asked a question pertaining to the original post, which was very much so on topic. The original poster claimed that an SKs aggro has fallen behind warriors and paladins more so than in the past. I asked what were the spells an SK were using for comparison purposes and curiosity. If this is fact, numbers would only help the SK community in sorting this out. Asking far fetched questions, will not help SKs out. Wars have received significant increases in aggro recently, paladins have received arguably mostly decreases in aggro generation recently if you know how to properly break things down. I and I'm sure many would like an accurate comparison if SK aggro has truly stagnated
SK's have can generate a massive amount of hate so I'm surprised your are asking for more. It's not a problem. Having some non-interruptible life-taps I would personally prefer over hate generation and some better dots in the next expansion.
I play both classes, My wife has a 100 pally that is semi raid geared roft1 and group cotf t1. My sk is raid geared rof t1- cotft1(2 bracers only). My normal play style is sk+pal+clr+3 dps mercs. I main tank in groups because my wife enjoys being backup healer and able to tank if I die. The problem is she can out agro me chaining her dps stuff faster than I can get agro chaining our agro stuff. I use k'onda + rof t1 raid hate mask and she does mars salvation on herself and cotf group hate mask. I use the cleric mostly for shinning and retort and lifetaps and and spot heals through Ostracize keep me going. I can keep agro over her going all out but she has to be careful and hold off before going all out. We don't run the dps mercs on burn because she can keep over them but unless I am going all out hard they have a chance to ping pong. With me playing wives pally as main tank I can turn the wiz mercs to burn and not have any issues with agro. The main issues is we have to drop a lot of our utility spells and dps to load this. Both pally and SK bleed mana like no tomorrow, I use cleric QM and pally mars to keep her up and sk AA bites and lifetap mana return aa and thought leach to keep him going. my wives pally heals way way more than my sk just on reflective heals that are done on hott but it generates a lot of agro, so only useable as main tank usually, If the pally know what they are doing on a raid I have seen them with mars salvation use their 2 reflective with their fade effectively healing the main tank a ton, and are insane on adds. I leave war out because I don't have them and I enjoy the fact that they can agro like an insane monkey going after a banana. Only noting cast times 1 sec or greater and recast longer than 6 seconds and all rank 1 spells so able to be gotten by grouper and raider alike. this is our typical spell lineups the # beside the spell name is the hate generated: Shadowknight Touch of Falsin 3667 + heal = to lifetap (recast 12.5 cast time 1 sec) Touch of Urash 3024 + heal = to lifetap (recast 12.5 cast time 1 sec) Touch of Dyalgem 2240 + heal = to lifetap (recast 12.5 cast time 1 sec) Dire Insinuation 7147 + heal (24 sec recast 1 sec cast) Insidious Deflection 2378 + heal (heal dependant on how many hit) Terror of Poira 6182 (cast time 1 sec) Demand for Power 4348 + ac Duplicitous Audacity 1290 for 1.8 mins Spear of Grelleth 8757 (24 sec recast) Grelleth's Skin Steadfast Stance Touch of Klonda SK AA: ragged bite of agonly 9875 hate every 60 sec Pally: Laudation 2950 (recast 18) Paean 2378 (recast 18) Force of the Iceclad 6908 (recast 12) Crush of Tarew 5154 (recast 24) Valiant Deflection 6794 + heal(4822) Ostracize 3635 + heal(5320) (cast time 1 sec) Protective Allegiance 4932 (cast time 1) + 15% vie Glorious Expurgation 3625 (recast 18 sec) twinheal recourse Wave of Sorrow Burst of Sunrise Steadfast Stance Preservation of the Iceclad Pally AA Disruptive Persecution 16k nuke = 11200 hate and castable every 12-18 sec (cant rememe and at works so can't go ingame to test) the 2 hate over time not even in the lineup for pally and never have been. Demand for Honor 4348 Devout Audacity 1290 Valiant Deflection 6794 + heal(4822) <-- this one spell is the difference it can be cast every 5 second for a reflective heal and an insane agro amount and has a cast time of 0.5 sec so basically never interrupted
Thanks for some numbers Ravengloome and Sojero. Very interesting stuff. I know and can comment on a Paladin and War as I raid on both but know nothing on sks.
I think if they upped terror a bit 1-2k agro and reduced cast time on life taps we would be in a good situation. If they gave us something like valiant deflection it would be amazing, that spell rocks for pallies. with the new manalinked gaunts I get amazing healing out of the pally, I wish it worked that way with the sk lifetaps. They are still good for any tank where attrition is the killing factor and not being one rounded. as far as dps SK's can use their lifetaps to do dps, they just get interrupted a lot and there are times when we don't have one up. We also use them as part of our agro, but they are way behind what a pally uses for agro and the cast/recast times. I haven't used the new mindless AA and I hope that helps fill the gap, IE gives us time to get more agro out when needed, been busy and only raided since the new aa came out. As far as DPS'ers go as long as they use their deagro abilities and play smart we don't as sk's have any issues keeping agro. The difference is with a pally or war main tank they do not have to do that, they can go all out and no worry about the agro, from my experiences.
valiant deflection has an aggro override on the heal... for 1700 so it gives 8400 hate total per cast not 6700... However IIRC ostrasizw has a NEGATIVE aggro override of 3500. But i am not sure.
I did not look at the recourse because that will not always be on the pally, in my group it is on the sk, and reflective heals go off the AA of the recipient so therefore I assume that the agro would also, but I may be wrong on that. I did not see any negative hate over rides in the spell data on either of those 2 spells. Edit, looking at the raw data I see that Ostracize does have a -2798 hate gen and a -2500 hate gen on the heal. Thanks, I did not notice that before so it only does 850 hate and 2800 hate on the heal. Also the reflective heal from valiant does have a bonus hate of 1772 on top of the heal hate. Does anyone know if the hate from the heal from both Ostracize and valiant deflection applies to the caster or receipt?
far as i know, it should be the caster. also when calculating SK hate remember that while yes technically it's true that a war or paladin can have voice of thule cast on them and thus push their numbers up even more, SK hate values are built assuming that we have voice of thule on *all the time*. the pure raw numbers on SK spells are misleading, you need to add 20% to all assumed hate at all times.
here is a basic breakdown of how fast the agro works in a group with sk and pal. note that this is without hate mods, those will make it more and less. Hate mods are what keep the agro bouncing for the first 8 seconds if my wife wants to mess with me voice of thule/touch of kolanda lets me catch up for the first 6 ro so seconds, she has to use mars to keep me on top. Then its all on her with no chance other than taunt and ageless for me to get it back after that. also note that this is the dps lineup for a pally, if we put in the taunt crush + stuns and valiant deflection their hate agro goes up very very quickly. 6182 pull with terror 4348 mob in camp 10530 1290 mob in camp for 2 seconds 11820 6182 mob in camp 4 seconds 18002 5638 mob in camp 6 seconds 23640 (recourses from challenge and Duplicitous Audacity) mob in camp 2950Laudation initial cast 0 sec in camp2950 11200dp .5 sec in camp14150 2378Paeon 1 sec in camp16528 850(depends on who gets heal agro)ostracize 2 sec in camp17378 5154crush of tarew 3 sec in camp22532 11200DP 3.5 sec in camp33732 Relooking at spell data the rugged bite of agony looks like it has a negative hate on it as well, therefore adds no hate . Was wondering why I had never seen it move the hate meter when it would be a 10k hate. My wife usually waits 2 seconds before starting her rotation to give me a chance to agro. also as tearsin noted the 20% hate does not catch us up with pally they are a full 100% more at 3.5 seconds and just gets more from there. Their hate over time unless cast around the 8 second or more mark is actually less agro for them.
Improved Explosion of Spite Improved Explosion of Hatred I think you meant those instead of hates attraction as that's a pulling tool (it does have hate attached but would never use just for hate as it flings the mob) Both are 8500 hate AE and 60 sec recast, they are great use one every 30 sec for ae, by the time the first mob goes down the rest your already 16k just by those ahead + insidious so you pretty much have 100% lockdown after the first mob, but don't factor in that much for single target because of the 60 sec recast, can use one every other mob. but they do help overall. we just got another cone hate but its on a 2 min 30 sec recast, haven't looked up the hate on it yet.
oh insidious deflection also has a hate bonus of 1772 on top of the other hate listed, forgot to add that one earlier
